How to Suck Less As A Manager, with Author and Consultant Ben Arendt
Want to suck less as a manager? Or, do you work with a manager who sucks?
Either way, you are NOT alone. Many managers struggle to become good at the difficult job of management: whether it stems from insufficient self-awareness, ineffective communication skills, or a lack of necessary tools.
Ben Arendt believes that all managers have a responsibility to improve themselves for the benefit of their careers and the teams they lead. Ben is Principal Consultant at Depth Charge Consulting and author of the recently-released book: How to Suck Less as a Manager: A Practical Guide to Making Your Team Less Miserable Today!
In this Thinkydoers episode, you’ll learn practical strategies that managers can take right now to better understand, communicate with, and support their teams.
Ben highlights the far-reaching impact of leadership and management, we discuss the importance of intellectual humility and the role that vulnerability plays in leadership, as well as his some tips for managing yourself when your manager sucks.
We also take a side trip into why we both believe leaders should increase their awareness around skills for working with diverse teams and disabled team members, and a few insights on leading and being led while neurodivergent.
From fostering a positive work environment to driving team performance, this conversation is full of valuable insights that can transform your leadership approach today.
Ready to take the first step towards becoming a more effective and inspiring manager? You're in the right place.
Key Points From This Episode:
• An overview of Ben’s fascinating career journey and how it led him to write this book.
• The self-awareness and continuous self-improvement required to be a better manager.
• How listening to and learning from others can help you develop intellectual humility.
• Why difficult conversations with diverse groups of people are key to a leader’s success.
• Three types of activities managers need to do to improve their craft.
• Practical advice for those who are dealing with managers that suck.
• Why Sara coaches that “productive struggling” may be a learning step, but sufferring at work is not acceptable.
• Ben's basic toolkit for better communication skills.
• Strength in vulnerability: why leaders should embrace emotional transparency.
• Why you should probably never be the smartest person in the room as a manager or leader.
• Pro tips for leaders and aspiring leaders who are neurodivergent or "wired differently."
• Major setbacks that helped to propel Ben forward in his career.
• Three key similarities between OKRs and being a better manager.
Quotes:
“If you don't care, you don't deserve to be here [in management]. If you're not willing to listen to other people, you're probably going to do a bad job.” — Ben Arendt [09:50]
“Communication, as sophisticated as it is, is imperfect. There are a lot of things that we as managers – can do better, both to help people be [motivated and engaged], but also get them the things that they want so that their careers improve down the line.” — Ben Arendt [15:50]
“There are a lot of people that should not be in leadership [who] have become managers because that was just the next step in their career.” — Ben Arendt [18:38]
“Getting a diversity of thought and perspective is not value signaling. It's an imperative.” — Ben Arendt [24:18]
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
EPISODE 19 FULL TRANSCRIPT
[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:06] SL: Welcome to the Thinkydoers Podcast. Thinkydoers are those of us drawn to deep work, where thinking is working. But we don't stop there. We’re compelled to move the work from insight to idea through the messy middle to find courage and confidence to put our thoughts into action. I'm Sara Lobkovich and I'm a Thinkydoer. I'm here to help others find more satisfaction, less frustration, less friction, and more flow in our work. My mission is to help change makers like you transform our workplaces and world. Let's get started.
[EPISODE]
[0:00:45] SL: I am so excited to welcome my friend Ben Arendt to the podcast today. Ben is a consultant, an author, and the operator of Depth Charge Consulting. Ben and I briefly crossed paths at a past workplace, and then late in 2023 we reconnected, discovered we were both writing books, and have been reading and supporting each other ever since. I asked Ben to come on today in part to celebrate the launch of his new book, How to Suck Less as a Manager: A Practical Guide to Making Your Team Less Miserable Today! Which I genuinely loved, by the way, after beta reading it, I bought two copies on pre-order, one for myself and one for my husband. Before the book was even out, I was recommending it to clients, friends, and colleagues.
In this episode, we hear a little bit about Ben's fascinating career history and he shares actionable insights and practices to help you suck less as a manager and learn how to struggle productively, not suffer when you find yourself working with a manager who sucks. We've all been there. Ben and I have a far-ranging conversation about leadership and management, intellectual humility, the role that vulnerability plays in leadership, and we touch on some key points about disability and diversity in the workplace.
A quick note before we dive into the episode, I have some really big announcements happening in the next few weeks. The book pre-launches, a brand new super affordable mini-course on No-BS Objectives and Key Results, limited-time launch offers for a screaming deal on my annual support program, Unblock Your Inner Strategist. We have an OKR assessment tool that's now live for people who are already working with OKRs and I'm putting the finishing touches on a new assessment to help anyone understand your own strategist style. If you haven't already, please hit pause. Go join my mailing list at findrc.co/newsletter right now. Then come on back for my conversation with Ben.
How to Suck Less As A Manager: A Thinkydoers Interview with Ben Arendt
This is going to ruin the podcast, having J.J. and you back-to-back. I'm going to do a solo episode talking about OKRs after this and no one's ever going to listen again.
[0:03:12] BA: I don't think that's true, but that's very kind of you to say. I actually think people will be happy to stop hearing whatever reedy voice is coming through in my farm, right now.
[0:03:23] SL: Okay, just one last question before we get serious.
[0:03:25] BA: Yeah.
You recently published How to Suck Less As a Manager. How is the book going? How are you doing?
[0:03:28] BA: It's fun. On the one hand, look, this was the only thing on my bucket list and I hit all the goals that I set for launch. I'm actually working on two additional books right now at the same time. I actually had to read a little bit of this to remind myself what the hell I wrote. Do you ever do that?
[0:03:44] SL: Yeah, of course.
[0:03:45] BA: Obviously, it was a treasure trove of like really useful content, but do you ever go back and you read it and you're like, “Man, I was smart when I wrote this.” You know?
[0:03:54] SL: I don't even read my stuff, because it activates the critical part of my brain. I can't incorporate edits without rewriting everything. It's a disaster. I mean, God bless my editor, but I can listen to it on Speechify. I put the manuscript into Speechify and hit play. Then I'm like, “Wow, this lady is really smart. Gosh, she sounds a lot like me, like someone gets me.” Then I have to remind myself that that's me talking to myself. Who are you and why are you here?
[0:04:25] BA: Thank you, Sara. I'm Ben Arendt. I am a consultant currently working at Depth Charge Consulting, which is a company I started about three months ago. I'm also the author most recently of How to Suck Less, there it is, as a Manager: A Practical – oh, you have one too. Oh, that's here. Let's touch.
[0:04:42] SL: Yeah. I have two. I already – for my husband and myself.
[0:04:45] BA: Well, it's funny, Sara, because the book is called, How to Suck Less as a Manager, and is available on Amazon. But I have to think, I don't think that you suck as a manager, Sara, but it's still useful. There's still some useful stuff. Even if you're a good manager, which you are.
[0:04:59] SL: We can all still learn. I'm going to fan girl about your book through the whole episode. I was lucky enough to be a beta reader. When a friend is writing a book and you get asked to beta read, it's kind of a little bit of a like, “Oh, I hope this doesn't suck.”
[0:05:20] BA: Which, I don't know. That has happened to me before. Has it happened to you?
[0:05:23] SL: Not yet. They've all been brilliant, like actually reading my friend's books has given me imposter syndrome about my own.
[0:05:30] BA: Now, I've beta-read yours and I don't think you should have imposter syndrome. I think your book is also brilliant and I can't wait. Everybody's happier after doing OKRs the right way.
[0:05:39] SL: That's the hope. That's the hope. No, I hope I'm a decent manager. I think, again, people who experience imposter syndrome tend to be the ones who are competent. So, like that I still work so hard to become a better manager, even though I am a professional leadership and management development coach. I mean, it's just the lifelong learning thing. But no, the book, Ben, when I read it in beta, what got me the most excited is you're talking about things that I haven't read in other places.
Ben has a classic, non-linear Thinkydoer career history
Your chapter on emotional intelligence and emotional self-regulation. I'm really excited to see the impact that you can have by having a little bit different take on what makes a great manager than what we typically see. How did you get here? How did you get to writing the book, How to Suck Less as a Manager?
[0:06:35] BA: I'm a curious guy. Throughout my career, which has been weird and circuitous with everything from a stint, when I was in the CIA, I was a White House briefer, then I was at CEB, which is a wonderful company where we really prided ourselves on listening to executives and leaders and being humble scribes of what was troubling them and who had solved it. I've always taken this position as I want to listen and learn from other people, not just because I'm trying to steal their wonderful ideas to enrich myself, but because I want to constantly better myself.
Self-awareness, emotional regulation, and intellectual humility are essential for managing well
Interestingly, Sara, you mentioned something at the onset, and I'll get back to the book journey, but you mentioned, I hope I'm a good leader. I want to be a good leader. I think the thing that I learned from some of the best leaders I've ever interacted with or learned from was there was a self-awareness piece and maybe that ties into the emotional regulation, but there was also a recognition that they were still developing and it was worthwhile to develop. To be honest, there were times when I was not a great manager, and in part, some of the emotional regulation was a challenge. There were points where I was a great manager, but I was always trying to get better and asking other people what they were doing.
There were a lot of different takes. Like you said in the book, some of it's quite different than what you might see in a typical management book, but I kept seeing the same problems happening again and again. I thought, I'm a snarky dude, you can sense it. If it's not funny, it's not worth doing. If you're not having fun, do something else. I said, what's a good fun way to take this on? That's just to be very authentic and to just call a spade a spade. Most of us as managers right now are failing the people on our teams and we're not putting enough effort into it.
What I hope is, is in this book are the things that I've learned from others and from experimenting and sometimes getting it wrong, not so that we're perfect, because it's not the thing to be great, but it is important to always get better and to be aware that we can get better.
[0:08:27] SL: Have you heard the term intellectual humility?
[0:08:30] BA: I have heard the term intellectual and I've heard the term humility and I love having them together.
[0:08:35] SL: Yeah. I had not heard those words together until there was a non-profit and it's focused on fostering intellectual humility as a solution to what plagues our culture here in America. That's what I hear when you talk about your development of your approach to management. That's what I read in your book is that it takes a lot of intellectual humility to put this much effort into learning the craft of management. How do you think you develop that intellectual humility to be a learner about management and leading people?
[0:09:14] BA: I had great people to take advantage of and great people to learn from what not to do. My dad was in the Navy and he was an officer. So, from a very young age, I got to see how he interacted with the people around him. I was lucky to have a father figure that was somebody I could aspire to be like. When this happened later, when I went to work for the government, I would run into people who had worked for him. They all adored him. They would say, he was tough, he was fair, but he cared.
I remember when I started becoming a manager and started taking on leadership and just asking him about that. One of the things he said that stuck with me, if you don't care, you don't deserve to be here. If you're not willing to listen to other people, you're probably going to do a bad job. It's interesting. A lot of people have this perception of the military. We're rank and file soldiers and they listen to orders and they follow them without question. That's actually not true at all.
The importance of nurturing dissent in leadership and management
I'm speaking about the US military in particular, but there's military organizations all over the world that are like this, they have tremendous demands on the kinds of things that they have to be able to do. So, for example, in the US military, every two years, they have almost 100% turnover with people going to different positions all over the world. Imagine being able to have an infrastructure to do that. If you're an officer or a leader who's in charge of a group of people, you're going to have new people that you have to earn trust and build community with and create a team dynamic and they get very good training to do that.
There is, in fact, a lot of disagreement that happens. It just happens behind closed doors in that you might have a superior, like a director-level officer talking to a manager-level officer and inviting the manager to share dissent, but ultimately coming to a conclusion, which then they together will be confident and follow through with. That's all to say. I learned a lot from that of the humility piece and listening to others.
I also very early on in my career, this is at the government. I had a mentor when I was brand new, who always encouraged me to speak up. This is also where early on I got my commitment to diversity as well, because this person really reinforced in me that you really want a bunch of different points of view, including people who are new from the outside, who maybe don't have all the perspective, because if you don't have everybody's unique perspective, you're going to miss something. Then in that context, if you miss something, very bad things happen, but then we look at the broader, like corporate context, it's exactly true too.
When we don't have people with different backgrounds, different experiences working together, they're going to run into situations where they fail to connect with certain client groups, where they miss clear opportunities to do something that could be very powerful, or don't anticipate a challenge that sinks their business, or don't realize they're making assumptions. So, for me, having that idea that everyone has something to offer, and I should at least listen and that it's okay not to know everything, really did a lot to teach me.
[0:12:14] SL: One of the things that I think is fascinating is now, you mentioned you listened to my last episode with J.J., and the last two guests have a military and public sector background. The thing that I never thought of, because I don't know if you know this about me, but I watch all the spy movies, all the –
[0:12:32] BA: Oh, God. Where is this going?
[0:12:34] SL: All the political intrigue movies, all the military movies, and the movies all emphasize the heroic nature of public service and of military service. What I've heard you both say is it's a system. It takes a system for this to work. It happens the same in corporate America, where the heroism gets the kudos, and it's the systems that can help us actually work better together. What you do in the book is you give people a system. It's basically what I wanted when I was a new manager. I was like, “Where's the textbook on this?” I read a lot of books about management, but not ones that gave me as much substance on the systems and what to do.
[0:13:23] BA: Before I tell you about the book, I actually want to compliment you on your book, too, which I was lucky enough to beta read for A, I love the title, but B, you actually do a really good job highlighting ways that we can create the systems that enable the people who don't always get a voice to participate. Because a lot of the time, it's those people who have a different insight, which everyone else is missing or not paying attention to, which can really help us succeed. Somebody asked me like, “Hey, what's something that you can use to determine if somebody's a good leader?” For me, it's, do they have people around them that disagree with them?
[0:13:59] SL: So good.
[0:14:01] BA: 100%, right? Because at the end of the day, how many companies have a small group of leaders and they have people around them that they trust, but nobody is actively dissenting or trying to poke holes in things? When you don't have that, when you have everybody thinking the same way, you miss things. I remember there was a leader. I had Jerry Sorkin, wonderful, wonderful individual who said they passed, who used to work at CEB. We used to get in a room and he would tell me his plan or his idea. He would say, “Tell me why I'm wrong.” I carried that throughout my entire career.
There were definitely times where I had people who would tell me why I was wrong. It was challenging at the time sometimes, but I always knew after that conversation, whatever I had was going to be that much sharper or preparing for that conversation, I was going to force myself to think through assumptions. So, a 100% to the systems, a 100% for enabling those voices, those thinkydoers, but now to your question about what's in the book. There are a couple of high-level sectors, if you will, of activities that managers really need to do to improve their craft.
One is about self-awareness and self-reflection. Because all of us, no matter, again, how genius or accomplished we are, are governed by a complex system of things that include emotions, they include biases, they include cognitive gaps. The more we're aware of those things, the more that we can make judgments that are logical, that are fair, and that are good in terms of both our business and the outcomes of the people that work for us.
The second key high-level sector is communication. I often joke with my friends and my loved ones. One day human beings are going to be psychic and we'll be able to telepathically communicate and there will either be a lot fewer misunderstandings or many, many more. I'm hoping it's the former, but realistically, communication, as sophisticated as it is, is imperfect. There are a lot of things that we as managers do to our team members, to our stakeholders that are not optimal, that we can do better, both to help people be motivated, engaged, but also get them the things that they want, so that their careers improve down the line.
Then the third category is planning. There are things that we can do, time that we need to spend thinking ahead in ways that enable our teams to thrive and enable us as managers to also thrive. A question I often get is, what's the top challenge that managers face today? It's for me, depending on what mood I'm in that day and who's irritated me. It's either you're not in control of your own emotions, you're not self-aware, or you have an infinite number of things to do and you can't make time for them. That planning and prioritization piece is absolutely crucial.
Why Thinkydoers are especially vulnerable to bad managers
[0:16:38] SL: One of the threads from what you just said that I think is really interesting is there are a lot of people in leadership who don't take stock, who don't have that intellectual humility or who lead based on power, or there are people who just don't know that they are leading based on privilege like that lack of awareness. So, your emphasis on self-awareness, I think is really important. Some of the people listening to this podcast are leaders. Some of the people listening to the podcast are people who suffer under these kinds of leadership. That is tough.
[0:17:16] BA: I bet a lot of them are.
[0:17:18] SL: Yes, yes. It's us. We're the ones who suffer most in workplaces with leaders that don't work in the way that you talk about. Do you have any thoughts or suggestions for folks who find themselves in organizations with managers that suck other than subtly leaving a copy of your book on their desk?
[0:17:41] BA: Oh, man. I'm actually working right now on the sequel to this, which is How to Manage Your Career. How to Suck Less at Managing Your Career. So, we're doing a whole suck less thing. A big part of what I have in that book. It's still in the early stages, but it's in a similar way to what we talk about with management, self-awareness. What I came to realize is careers, as much as this is cliche, it's 100% a journey. It's more about the journey than the destination. I mean, the destination is nice too, but that journey definitely makes a difference along the way.
I've had so many different diverse experiences. Each time, maybe I took a slight step back in my career, but I created so many new skills and opportunities for myself that I advanced myself. That all gets to, there's a big component there of being willing to view career that way, because then my advice for these people is there are certain things that you can do to try to communicate better with your leader, but at the end of the day, there are a lot of people that should not be in leadership, that have become managers because that was just the next step in their career and they don't really have any interest in doing it right.
I mean, so much so that I quote a statistic in the book that as many as 82% of current managers don't actually have the fundamental skills to be effective managers. I mean, you're going to run into a lot of people like that. If you can come out with a way to create trust and communication with even a reasonably bad manager, if you can make your life livable enough that you're still learning new skills and activities in your job, then it can be worth it. But I also encourage people don't feel like you have to do the same thing forever. Don't feel like you have to be stuck in it. You have control over your own destiny to some extent.
There was a study published on this recently that managers are as impactful on our mental health as our spouses, in some cases, as our partners. If you're in a situation that's abusive and you're miserable, there's a lot of jobs out there. Even when the market's down and nobody should be in an abusive manager situation.
[0:19:43] SL: So many of us internalize the message that what's happening to us in our career is a personal flaw or it's our fault or there's something wrong with us. It's okay to struggle. It's not okay to suffer. So, if you're struggling, if you're learning, if you're engaged and you're remaining curious and you're struggling, that's one thing. But if you're suffering, then that's when to your point, it's time to pull the rip cord or to find ways to support yourself while you're suffering in finding what comes next so that you can get out of there.
[0:20:23] BA: As an individual, if you're suffering, there's nothing wrong with you. Just assess like what's the circumstance that's preventing me from thriving? But as a manager, if you see somebody struggling, don't resent them for it. Get to the root of it. Is it a bad match or I something happening in their real life that's causing them to have less effort or less input? Is there something that happened at work that's preventing them from bringing their full self to work? I think that's a really good point you bring up. There's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with people that aren't doing well. Let's treat ourselves and our teams with compassion and just try to solve the challenge.
[0:20:58] SL: I think for the leaders listening, I would say if you're hesitating to ask someone what's going on, consider is that because, deep down, you might not think of it as not inviting dissent or as not wanting to be challenged, but deep down that might be part of it. This is where my particular flavor of neurodivergence comes in really handy because I'm at my best when I tell the truth. I am not capable of not telling the truth, not capable, which has led to all sorts of hijinks in my career. But leaders who are wired any way can learn the toolkit for that candid conversation, that toolkit for being comfortable and confident in having the, hey, what's going on, conversation. It comes more naturally to some of us, but any leader can learn that.
[0:21:53] BA: I have a couple recommendations in how to suck less. It's one of the big things is don't make any assumptions. I actually say be very clear on what you want to get out of that conversation as a leader. What is my objective? If my objective is to find out if Jimmy is okay and let him know that I'm behind him, but also that I need his work to pick up. Have some clear objectives that you're trying to get out, because that'll keep you focused.
I also suggest role-playing, even if you're somebody who's totally fine with full conversations, you'd be surprised how easy it is to mess up some of these very nuanced ways of saying to somebody that something they're doing is not acceptable. Being able to think critically and actually go through the motions can be really helpful. It also makes it so you're not as nervous when it happens.
Then another one I call it the positive anchor. I always hated the compliment sandwich. There were too many times where I got, “Hey, Ben. Your shirt looks really appropriate today. By the way, you're a horrible person, but thank you for showing up on time.” You know where it's like the bread of the sandwich and the idea is you have two compliments and there's something negative and be too constructive, I should say, but usually the thing in the middle wasn't constructive and leaders feel like they can just say whatever, because there's something positive, even if it's completely meaningless.
What I like to do is, if I'm going to have a difficult conversation, begin by rooting it in what is really valuable about the person I'm speaking to, so that they're secure, that I appreciate them, and that they are recognized for what they do well. Routing the conversation around security and the things that are really important to their identity can help take away that defensiveness to show I'm not passing judgment on you, but there's something that we need to work on together, like you are secure, you are valued. However, here's something that does need to change. Can you help me with it?
Management and career survival tips for Thinkydoers, and why disability competency is so important for leaders
[0:23:45] SL: One of the reasons I love your book, I think it's really accessible to people who are wired differently. The structure and the way it's written and how actionable it is. It makes it accessible to leaders who might be neurodivergent or have other intellectual challenges or come from different cultural backgrounds. There are a lot of people from different cultural backgrounds who feel like they don't fit in an American business. Your book is something that can help people know that they have a place, even if they feel like they don't fit in in standard American leadership.
[0:24:17] BA: Getting a diversity of thought and perspective is not, what is that called, value signaling? It's an imperative. You might have a secret knowledge that is going to make me and my business succeed. It's a selfish thing. It's not even, because I think it's the right thing, which I do. Real quick, though. It's funny. I actually, this reminds me, I didn't put this in the book, but maybe I should, because your point, I remember having a manager who actually did use a script for a difficult conversation, probably for similar reasons.
I remember that person began by saying, “Hey, I want to let you know I'm reading from a script that's not because I don't want to have an honest connection, but I really want to make sure I get this right. This makes me feel like I can focus more on the conversation.” I think that is a perfectly valuable and self-aware thing to do. Being vulnerable is a really important way to gain trust. I think just sharing things about limitations can be valuable too. I'm a type one diabetic. I had to tell people. “Yeah, I'm having a real bad day today. If you need something, I'm available, but if it's okay, I'm going to try to just get some stuff done, because I'm really not feeling well.”
I could have lied. I could have phoned it in, but I wasn't my whole self. I wanted to make sure that they knew. It wasn't because I didn't think they were important. I just didn't feel good that day. The important piece is to just transparently communicate about it and be confident that there's nothing wrong with you. If that's what you need to do your best job, that's great. Then do it.
[0:25:42] SL: This is why we need more people in leadership who have some disability background because I'm not going to say that creates safety for people to ask for accommodations they need, but the more of us in leadership who are at least aware and acquainted with the role that disability or that challenges can play in people's career and work, the more safe it is for people to speak up for what they need.
[0:26:11] BA: 100%.
[0:26:12] SL: That's one of the things that I intentionally decided when I started this company is that my staff, this is a place where it's safe to be transparent and honest with what's going on in our health lives. The relationships that I get to build, because of that and the quality of the work of the people who work here is off the charts because that shouldn't be a privilege or a benefit. That should just be how we all operate. It's really important to me to put my money where my mouth is, around disability access and also just that being disabled is normal.
[0:26:54] BA: Being disabled is normal. Needing some kind of accommodation sometimes is normal. Some of the smartest people I know are neurodivergent in some way or another. In some ways, that's what enables us to think differently or see things differently. There's another thread in what you were talking about, which I think gets back to that point of vulnerability, but being open with your team about your limitations and recognizing, it's not your job to do everything.
When you're a people leader, your job becomes not succeeding for yourself, but enabling the people under you to be the best versions of themselves at work, whatever that requires, and that intellectual humility of it's okay if the people that work for me are smarter than me in some ways, I'm just trying to give them the tools that they need is a big transition for a lot of people, especially those that are used to being high-level individual contributors or the smartest people in the room. That's one of the things I look for in companies or individuals I'm working with to see if there are a potential not-sucky manager is, are they cool, not being the smartest person in the room sometime, or needing help sometime, or seeding control of some stuff to people under them sometimes, whether for personal reasons or because that's what's best for the outcome?
[0:28:17] SL: The benefit of being a founder is that I get to architect the system that lets me do my best work and then create the conditions for my people to do their best work. The term that I also think is really important for more leaders to become acquainted with is pre-disabled. That we are all at some point going to experience some disability and that our workplaces and our leadership need to recognize, if you're not disabled now, you may be in the future. So, fun fact, that was partly why I started writing the book was so that I had a playbook I could use on my own bad brain days, but it takes that humility to say, I'm not always going to be at my best, so how can I make sure that my people can work at their best when I can't?
[0:29:07] BA: Sometimes I feel amazing, right? I'm a little neurodivergent too. Sometimes I have these moments of like – maybe genius is – but let's just say very lucid productivity. It's hard in those moments just as it is for anyone in a moment of health to realize and not take for granted how great that is. I think it's a wonderful point of not taking that for granted, both for personal satisfaction, but also to incorporate consideration of that into how we lead and in how we interact with others professionally.
Pro tips for leaders and aspiring leaders who are neurodivergent, or otherwise unconventional leaders
[0:29:40] SL: Do you have any pro tips for leaders or aspiring leaders who might be neurodivergent or not otherwise out of business central casting, like leadership central casting?
[0:29:55] BA: Yes. Think about your preferences for communication, both expressing information and taking it in, and then come up with a lens to also think critically about the people that are going to work with you in the future's preferences for taking in and putting out communication. I've had neurodivergent leaders who were amazing. I've had some that were really difficult to work with, because they got really easily frustrated.
All of us have preferences, but sometimes I find when we're neurodivergent, those preferences are sometimes more important to prioritize and to be self-aware of and to communicate about. Being neurodivergent isn't just hard in the workplace. It can be very hard as you're growing up in an education system, which isn't built for you. You probably over time start to internalize, “Oh, something's wrong with me, because I'm not doing what the other kids are doing. I'm having trouble. My teacher’s not happy with me. My parents aren't happy with me.” But then once we start to realize it's just your brain works a different way. We can build a system that works for them.
The things that they're able to do, like that could be the difference between somebody curing cancer and somebody believing that they're worthless and never getting off the ground. I love your question. I think the key is be self-aware, communicate about your needs, and be aware of how that impacts others' needs and open channels to create that trusted avenue of getting the right information both ways.
[0:31:17] SL: I do want to ask you the speed round questions. The first one is –
[0:31:22] BA: Aquarius. Oh, no, that's not it. Okay, my bad.
[0:31:26] SL: Is there an example of a big failure or loss that propelled you forward in your career, a time where you've had a really major setback, and that's helped move you toward where you are now?
[0:31:40] BA: Oh, there's been tons. I think at a high level, it's a combination of things that have happened externally, like a business getting acquired and suddenly the job I was going to have isn't there anymore. I had a leader pass away and I completely changed the dynamic of a wonderful job. I had some leaders that I had hitched my wagon to their star, get let go. That was a setback. I think just being resilient in those moments and keeping in mind, what am I trying to achieve with my career and what are my options? It's okay to not have answers. Let me just keep my eyes open and look for other opportunities is what helped me throughout, and trying to have fun and laugh as much as possible, because otherwise you lose your mind.
How great management and OKRs go hand in hand
[0:32:19] SL: Is there anything I should have asked you that I haven't?
[0:32:21] BA: I think the only thing is why I really like – we worked together. I got to attend one of your classes and your passion for OKRs, I think is well founded, because what I love about OKRs ties into a lot of what's important to be a good manager. There are three key things for me. One is they force communication both from the bottom up and top down. It's greater visibility, greater awareness. Two, they force prioritization, because if everything's important, nothing is. That's how we know we all get into trouble and we don't spend time on the right activities and develop our people if we're managers or whatever we need to self-develop. So, they force prioritization.
Then third, they force us to actually be able to measure the things we're trying to achieve, which forces us to focus on tangible things and think hard about what we're actually trying to achieve. So, there's that self-reflection. There's prioritization. There's communication. Sounds a lot like the framework for the book. I wanted to make sure we did get a chance to say I'm a 100% pro-OKR.
[0:33:23] SL: I mean, the podcast doesn't have to be about OKRs, but I do appreciate the validation.
[0:33:31] BA: I'm really passionate about how people communicate. I know, Ben is to communication as Sara is to OKRs a little bit. I wanted to make sure you knew that OKRs are never far from my heart, Sara. You were the one who taught me about them, originally.
[0:33:44] SL: Oh, that's wild.
[0:33:45] BA: Because you were the first class I took on OKR. Then I was reading the John Doerr book, too. So, when I think of OKRs, I think of Sara.
[0:33:50] SL: Oh, that's so awesome. That's kind of weird, but also awesome.
[0:33:56] BA: Well, hopefully when you think about sucking as a manager, you'll think of me –
[0:34:01] SL: Sucking less as a manager for sure.
[0:34:02] BA: There you go. Yeah, people who suck less.
How to contact Ben Arendt:
[0:34:04] SL: Well, if people would like to get in touch with you or if they want more information about the book, how can they find you?
[0:34:10] BA: My website is depthchargeconsulting.com. You can also just reach me at ben@depthchargeconsulting.com. You can also just go to howtosucklessbooks.com. The book is available on Amazon, but either of those URLs will take you there as well. I'm doing consulting work, not only helping train managers but helping organizations think more clearly about change and performance. Both things definitely are related to management and communication. Look forward to some fun challenges to help people grow their business and enable their people to thrive.
[0:34:42] SL: Ben, thank you so much. I knew this was going to be fun. I just love your brain. It's wonderful to see you in the world doing what you do. Thank you for taking a little time out to join me here today.
[0:34:54] BA: Likewise, Sara. It was a tremendous pleasure. Always good to hang out. I can't wait to have this conversation about your book soon.
[0:35:01] SL: After my last two interviews, you're probably thinking to yourself, is everyone who works with OKRs and who's OKR adjacent this charming? If I may say so myself, the answer is yes. We really are. The community of professionals I get to exist in doing this work is an absolutely delightful collection of people all trying to make their corner of the world better based on the change they believe is possible. We're all good trouble. Would you like to be a guest on this podcast? Drop me an email at hello@redcurrantco.com and tell me how your topic is relevant to Thinkydoers.
I want to say an enormous thank you to Ben for joining me for this episode. This isn't the last you'll hear from him since I'm going to use some of the outtakes from our conversation as shorts in the next few weeks. It was just too good. But don't wait to pick up a copy of his book. I think it's an essential read for leaders and managers and for people who are led and managed and want to increase their expectation of what good leadership and good management looks like. Thank you so much for writing this book, Ben. Thanks for joining us today.
[END OF EPISODE]
[0:36:17] SL: All right, friends. That's it for today. If anything resonated or left you puzzled, I'm here to hear it. Stay in the loop with everything going on around here by visiting findrc.co/newsletter and joining my mailing list. Got questions? Reach out to me via email at hello@redcurrantco.com, or I'm Sara Lobkovich on most of your favorite social media platforms with the name like that it’s hard to spell, but I’m not hard to find. I’ll include those details in to the show notes which you can navigate to by visiting findrc.co/thinkydoers. If there's someone you'd like to hear featured on this podcast, I would love to hear that. If you know other Thinkydoers who'd benefit from this episode, please share. Your referrals and reviews are really appreciated. I'm looking forward to the questions this episode sparks for you and I look forward to seeing you next time.
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