Q2 2025 OKR Forecast: Generative AI, Localization, and Retrospectives with a Panel of OKR Experts

CareersTech and Tools

Jun 5

Written By Sara Lobkovich

Ever wonder what's really happening in the OKR world beyond the hype?

Join Sara Lobkovich, Maria Rowcliffe, and Natalie Webb for a candid, no-BS look at where OKRs are heading in 2025. This isn't your typical "here's how to write an objective" conversation. Instead, you'll get insider insights from three veteran practitioners who've been in the trenches, helping organizations navigate the messy reality of goal-setting and alignment at scale.

In this first part of our quarterly update, we dive deep into the generative AI revolution (spoiler: it's not as revolutionary as everyone claims), the evolving art of OKR localization across complex organizations, and why your retrospectives might be the most important OKR practice you might be doing wrong. Whether you're an OKR skeptic, a seasoned practitioner, or somewhere in between, this conversation will give you practical insights you can't get anywhere else.

Episode Highlights:

Generative AI in OKRs: why draft quality is improving, but real strategic impact is still lagging behind
TRV (Technology Realized Value): the Big Five’s new metric for linking OKRs to actual tech investment outcomes
The “Two Lists” Problem: how teams are secretly working off dual strategies—and why it’s undermining OKR focus
Cascading and Localization: evolving models for aligning across global teams, even amid geopolitical complexity
Culture-First OKRs: tailoring implementation to readiness, from transformation-driven overhauls to scrappy gradual rollouts
Retrospectives that matter: how deeper reflection—not just review—builds quarter-over-quarter OKR maturity

Key Concepts Explored:

Generative AI in OKRs: Where it's accelerating strategy work, where it's falling short, and the risk of generic, uncontextualized models
Technology Realized Value (TRV): A new metric used alongside OKRs to measure the tangible impact of tech investments
The “Two Lists” Problem: How parallel strategic workstreams outside the OKR framework dilute focus and undermine accountability
Localization & Alignment: Why clear, bottom-up contribution is critical in global, matrixed organizations—especially in high-stakes geopolitical climates
Culture-Responsive Implementation: Tailoring OKR rollouts based on organizational readiness, risk appetite, and transformation goals
Iterative Learning over Perfection: Why OKR maturity builds quarter over quarter—and how learning from retrospectives is more valuable than writing the “perfect” OKR
Leading vs. Lagging Indicators: The power of AI to help surface potential leading indicators clients may struggle to define on their own
Transformation & Change Management: How OKRs, when paired with transformation strategy, become powerful drivers of organizational evolution

Notable Quotes:

"Is this really driving the value you wanted to achieve? How do you know who cares? So what happens if this is done or not done? These things that don't get asked are so critically important to make sure that people are focused on the right work." — Natalie Webb [00:12:00]

"If I could only tell clients one thing about OKRs, it would be we spend all of our time focused on writing them and then way too little time focused on learning from them." — Sara Lobkovich [00:23:00]

"I think the best way to use OKRs initially is always the way that the company is willing and able to adopt it. Me talking about the gold star way of doing OKRs isn't gonna help clients that are at the crawling level and not a hundred percent convinced yet." — Maria Rowcliffe [00:21:00]

"OKRs are really hard. We're talking about change - really hard for people to stick with when it gets challenging." — Sara Lobkovich [00:28:00]

Chapters:

[00:00:00] Introduction: Welcome to the OKR Dream Team Q2 Update
[00:03:00] Book Launch Celebration and Team Introductions
[00:05:00] Generative AI in OKR Practice: Separating Hype from Reality
[00:06:00] TRV (Technology Realized Value): The New Complementary Metric
[00:08:00] Practical AI Applications: Interview Analysis and Leading Indicators
[00:12:00] The Risks of Anonymous OKR Generators and Untrained Models
[00:14:00] OKR Localization: Navigating Global Complexity and Geopolitical Challenges
[00:16:00] Alignment Strategies: KRs vs. Full OKRs at Lower Levels
[00:18:00] Culture and OKR Implementation: One Size Doesn't Fit All
[00:21:00] Meeting Organizations Where They Are: The Quarterly Improvement Approach
[00:23:00] Retrospectives Revolution: Beyond Basic Questions
[00:26:00] The "Two Lists" Problem: When OKRs Fail to Drive Focus
[00:27:00] Transformation Expertise: The Secret Weapon in OKR Practice
[00:29:00] Wrap-up and Part 2 Preview

Upcoming Events:

Q3 Strategic Achievement Intensive is now registering!
Join for a No-BS approach to strategy and goal-getting with Sara: No-BS Strategic Clarity Workshop
Catch Sara at the World OKR Summit! She’ll be speaking this October 30–31: okrsummit.org

Book Update:

You Are A Strategist: Use No-BS OKRs to Get Big Things Done: New book available in print and ebook. More info is here!

Natalie’s Links and Info:

Company: Cloud Peak Enterprise Group (Founder)
Specialization: Global OKR consulting (8+ years experience)
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nataliejwebb

Maria’s Link and Resources:

Chief of Staff & Business Operations: 10+ years experience
Specialization: OKR implementation, transformation, and program revitalization
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariarowcliffe

Sara’s Links and Resources:

Email: sara@thinkydoers.com
Website: https://saralobkovich.com/thinkydoers-pod
Podcast: Thinkydoers Podcast (available on all major platforms)
Social Media: Sara Lobkovich (across platforms)
Newsletter: Subscribe at findrc.co/newsletter
Contact: findrc.co/contact or hello@redcurrantco.com
Programs and Services:
- No-BS Strategic Clarity Workshop: More info here
- No-BS OKRs Workbook: PDF download available at saralobkovich.com/no-bs-okrs-workbook-pdf-tc
- Speaking and Event Facilitation: Now booking!

Find full show notes and the episode transcript via https://findrc.co/thinkydoers !

Full Episode Transcript:

Sara: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Thinkydoers podcast. Thinkydoers are those of us drawn to deep work, where thinking is working, but we don't stop there. We're compelled to move the work from insight to idea, through the messy middle, to find courage and confidence to put our thoughts into action.

I'm your host, Sara Lobkovich. I'm a strategy coach, a huge goal-setting and attainment nerd, and board-certified health and wellness coach working at the overlap of work life well-being I'm. Also a Thinkydoer. I'm here to help others find more satisfaction, less frustration, less friction, and more flow in our work.

My mission is to help changemakers like you transform our workplaces and world. So let's get started.

Sara: All right, all, [00:01:00] welcome. I have a special treat for you today. I'm here today with my OKR besties, Maria Rowcliffe and Natalie Webb, for our Q2 2025 OKR update. This became a quarterly gathering after we did the last one in Q1 and had so much fun, we decided to do this live every quarter. In this first part of our conversation, we'll have a little update on how we're seeing generative AI being used in OKR practice, the evolution of localization and methods of cascading of OKRs, and how different approaches to retrospectives can drive organizational learning. It's a packed discussion with insights from all three of us, so let's get started.

Sara: Hello, friends. Today I am very excited to [00:02:00] bring you a conversation with Carrie Melissa Jones, community strategist, author and founder of the CMJ Community. What makes this episode especially intriguing is that Carrie has built her career around creating spaces for connection and community, while also navigating her own social anxiety. If you've ever felt that community spaces aren't for you because you're introverted, shy, neurodivergent, or just sensitive, this episode might change your perspective. We will explore what makes communities safe and accessible for different thinking and sensory styles, the power of quiet communities, and how belonging can happen even without active participation. Carrie will also share practical advice for both community participants and those considering building their own communities. So whether you are a self-proclaimed lone wolf like me or someone wrestling with how to create connection on your own terms, this conversation offers insights that just might surprise you. Let's get [00:03:00] started.

Sara: Welcome, everyone, to this Q2. It's weird, I keep losing track of what month and quarter it is, but Q2 2025 OKR update with my OKR besties, Maria Rowcliffe [00:02:00] and Natalie Webb. We did this last quarter and had so much fun, we decided we're gonna do it quarterly. I also think this earned us the nickname of the OKR Dream Team. It just makes me so happy. There are so many amazing voices on OKRs, and one of the things I absolutely love is how much we are all in this together. So, I'm Sara Lobkovich. I'm your host of Thinkydoers. I am the owner and operator of Red Currant Collective and the author of the new book, you are a Strategist: Use No-BS OKRs to get Big Things Done. came out in march in ebook, and then print launch was earlier this week with independent availability as of yesterday. You can get your copy most places where books are sold. And that book exists partly because of the two ladies that I'm on screen with, encouraging me, marching to the beat of my own drummer in the OKR space.

Maria: How do you feel, Sara, being up/down with it? You've been working on this, I wouldn't call the labor of love, because I know there's also been a lot of pain involved in [00:03:00] getting there. So, how do you feel now?

Sara: It's really humbling. That's what I'd say.

Maria: Congratulations.

Sara: Thank you. And you two are next. So, Natalie, go for it. Let's tell folks who you are.

Natalie: Natalie Webb, founder of Cloud Peak Enterprise Group. I do OKR consulting all around the world. I've been in it like eight years, I guess, now. And really happy to be here with these two brilliant ladies. I am a big fan of your book. In fact, I'm taking it with me, and several other copies to Barcelona next week, because there is a gathering of OKR experts with OKR Mentors.And we'll give it out maybe as prizes for the folks attending Barcelona. So, I'm stoked about that. Congratulations, friend. It's a wonderful book.

Sara: Thank you. I'm OKR Mentors alumni, and I wish I had the time to stay participating. It's an awesome group. Natalie, and then Maria, tell folks who you are and what you do.

Maria: Maria Rowcliffe. I've been doing strategy development with more of an emphasis on execution for 25 [00:04:00] years or so. The last six or seven years more focused on OKRs. I have found it to be the most impactful way of aligning an organization around strategic priorities. My focus is more on the execution part, which I think has something to do with the fact that for over 10 years have primarily had chief of staff and had a business operations role, when I've been responsible for either implementing OKRs or transforming or revamping a program that, for one reason or another, isn't going well.

Sara: Yeah. And there's so much focus on creating strategy and OKRs, and so relatively little on how to achieve it. But let's start with generative AI. It's still what everyone's talking about in OKRs. Every tool has some kind of generative AI story at this point. I would love to hear from you both, has anything changed since we gathered last in how you're using generative AI or how you're seeing clients use generative AI?

Maria: [00:05:00] Yeah,I'm not seeing a change yet. I'm not seeing a big shift. I'm still seeing a huge interest in it. There's more talk about the potential of it, but I am not seeing any real improvement. What I am seeing is that every single OKR platform, or any platform that has goal setting or goal execution in it, now has an AI component, which includes looking at helping to identify objectives, key results, and figure out alignment and all that. So there's the mechanics of that, but I'm not seeing organizations that are not using platforms using AI in either developing their OKRs or executing on them.

Natalie: Yeah. I've seen a shift from Q1 to Q2 around a new metric, called TRV. I don't know if you guys have heard it. And it's almost sort of a blend of KPIs and OKRs at the same time. The definition, it's Technology Realized Value. You can apply it to financial, operational, or experiential types of technology, [00:06:00] but it's really around that technology investment, and are you getting the return on the investment? A lot of Big Five consulting firms are using that too in collaboration with OKRs. And what I'm seeing they're doing is putting in some of the summary details about a project or a big program, multi-quarter, multi-year program, and using generative AI to say what are the themes that are coming up in some of the interviewing feedback. I have come to find, even just this year, these early one-on-one conversations I have with executives in preparation for an on-site meeting are so hugely beneficial because themes start emerging and they want to see that executive summary of those themes, which is, tell us what our people are saying. One of the questions I always ask in my interview questions in preparation for on-site is, "What are your potential moonshot ideas? What would you do if you had a magic wand, unlimited people, time, money?" And those turn into [00:07:00] some really great hotbeds of OKRs. So I'm seeing that using AI on a private environment is really valuable because it gives you the themes and the percentages of information so that you can net out to the client what you're seeing.

Sara: Can I sit right in between? I'm using it in a similar way. I have private instances that are closed off, where I anonymize customer data and have trained models to process meeting notes to look for insight or ideas, yes, potential OKRs could be. It's not a replacement for the coaching, because I have experimented with using my model to develop a draft objective for clients, and they don't remember it if they don't develop it. It's not a replacement. But I am finding it to be a bit of an accelerator in getting people from that endless discussion and being hesitant to get to a decision. It's like, I can cut off the discussion and say, "Let me ask my model what it thinks," and then come back and [00:08:00] say, "All right, here's a candidate, discuss." So, that's how I'm using it. I became aware of actually because of Ben Lamorte talking about it and posting about it,OKR chat models being released by people with absolutely no sourcing of what they're trained on. And so, I would say there's a caution right now that I trust the platforms that are implementing, subject to whatever their terms of use are, but OKR platforms implementing with some kind of generative AI, I kind of trust, because at least they're in the OKR business. And then generative AI work being done by other OKR professionals that are identified. Cool. But man, clients are gonna get hurt. Users are gonna get hurt by anonymous models that don't have sourcing. And as a content creator, just kills me to see elements of my work. It's like, you can see where you've been the training.

Yeah. And I just, can't wait till we can [00:09:00] source back Who has trained what on my materials. Let's see. Because that part of it is just super shady.

Maria: Yeah. I am a little bit, in your camp in terms of how I use, because I use it myself. And one thing that has improved since last quarter is that the instances of myself that I have created, because I have to have quite a few doing different things for me, so I am no longer a team of one, I'm a team of actually six or seven that I have that do different things. But I would say that has become better. Because in the first quarter, when I started more using it, I was fighting it to go, it would give me back things that, "No, this is not a KR... no, this is absolutely not an objective." So I think that the quality of what I get back has become better. But I'm not seeing clients do that on their own. So it might be that I am sharing some examples. And again, I'm more focusing on the leading indicators. because I think that is where AI can actually help the most, because those are the ones that [00:10:00] aren't as intuitive as the regular lagging indicators. I would say, though, that I've also tried a lot of these OKR generators that are on some company websites. I'm not gonna name names. And I would say that what they come up with are not things that the three of us would say, "That's a great objective," or "That's a great KR." But that was even a problem, I think, for me when I was advising clients on which platform to potentially go with. Because I was just like, if you are looking at platforms, look at the definition that they have and the examples that they have of objectives and key results. Because if they have examples of KR in particular, which is my biggest pet peeve, that are just milestones and activities and the kind of stuff you actually should be managing as part of program management, if that is the examples they have, any training material, anything that they have on their website, everything that they might generate as part of an AI generator for OKRs or whatever, it's gonna include that. And so it's gonna lead you down a path that [00:11:00] are gonna make OKRs a less impactful methodology for your company to implement than not.

Sara: Yeah, absolutely. I'm also in that process of training avatar mes, because I figured if other people are training models on my work, then why can't I?I think we're gonna continue to see a lot of attention here. There's so much focus on OKRs, but I feel like it's constricting a bit. It's one of the reasons I'm glad to have another OKR book out in the world right now, because we need to drive awareness, and drive awareness that OKRs that people saw in 2016 or 2017, what we're doing now bears little resemblance to what was. Being done in the earlier iterations of OKRs. So, on the one hand,if all this focus and stuff enables people to try OKRs and then figure out that it can be done better than what generic models are providing in terms of support — cool. I just really hope that we don't [00:12:00] see people play with OKR generators and think that that's what OKRs are.

Natalie: I think I'm in that camp. And you mentioned what Ben did. I've seen some generated OKRs, and the theory of it, the textbook of it, I guess, meets the criteria. But what is missing, even when I've been in sessions and folks in the room have used a generator to say, "Oh, this whatever AI tool says, this is a perfectly worded key result," and I say, "Yes." But this is where I think that the consulting comes in, is this really driving the value you wanted to achieve? How do you know? Who cares, right? Then, so what? So what happens if this is done or not done? And some of those things that don't get asked,I think are so critically important to make sure that people are focused on the right work. It could be written very well, but it also could be missing the mark completely on the value you're expecting. to get from it.

Sara: Yeah. So to put a bow on the generative AI conversation, the takeaway that I'm gonna reinforce that came from both of [00:13:00] you is, one of the places models can be particularly helpful is in solving the problems that humans are having trouble solving. Maria mentioned leading indicators, and then Natalie, you mentioned getting to what's really contributing to results. That's a place I'm right there with you too. When clients are having a hard time developing leading indicators, I usually can, but I don't wanna offer. I'm a coach. I don't offer the answer; I ask the questions. But it has been interesting to play with a trained model that is skilled at identifying possible leading indicators, because it helps clients see what we're talking about. It's like it gives them a relevant, local example, and then they're like, "That's not it, but that lets me know what we're aiming for." Because I think that is one of the things that, generic examples, especially like generic examples of objectives and key results, are good teaching tools. But generic examples of leading indicators, people just don't get it. So I think [00:14:00] that's a good takeaway from this is, that's one of the uses that all three of us are seeing value in. Okay, so then our next topic is localization or cascading and what is changing or evolving in practices around localization and cascading. And for folks who are less familiar with objectives and key results, that is the process of moving OKRs through an organization, where we have company-level objectives and key results that might localize to functional orgs and localize to teams. And I'm super curious to hear what you two are seeing in localization. Let's start with Natalie for this one.

Natalie: Yeah, it's really interesting because I'm working right now with a couple companies that are globally matrixed. And it's particularly interesting in this geopolitical climate around tariffs, right? We're seeing some new challenges that have not bubbled up before. So ever more important to have [00:15:00] really clear, focused, and transparent OKRs at the functional team levels, and that we're doing that check between leadership and the functional teams and there's not any misses. And I'm finding there's more misses where I work with a functional team and they say, "These are our most strategic things that we have to get done in the next 90 days," And then their leadership says, "Well, what about these three other things?" Right? And I'm like, Well, they didn't mention those, so let's make sure we don't have any misses, and then we have to adjust." And so I'm seeing the localization be even more important to validate that it's aligned than ever before.

Sara: Yeah. Maria, what are you seeing?

Maria: I completely agree with Natalie. I am very much of a proponent to try to really combine the tops down and the bottoms up. And I have on occasion, more than once, suggested to clients that when you get down to like L3 or L4, if that's how far down you go, that you might not do the objectives, but that you do KRs that are attached to [00:16:00] or connected, aligned with upline. Because the alignment really happens more at the KR level and then what work is driving those KRs. So that's what I'm seeing. Because I feel quite strongly that if you have an organization, if you just localize OKRs level one and level two, that means that the majority of the organization still doesn't know how they or their teams uniquely contribute to the results of the business. I do think that it's important that teams further down in the organization have that conversation about how are we contributing to these outcomes, and how will we know, and how are we doing that? As opposed to, "Let's just stop here because it gets too complex." I'd rather look for more kind of scrappy ways of having teams do that.

Sara: Super similar for me on localization. I am working mostly with clients on company or top-level OKRs, and then functional, one level of functional localization, to make sure that we are modeling best [00:17:00] practices at those two levels. And then some key results are localizing. It's like where the math connects down, or where the math localizes down, we localizing key results down. But the model that I'm using now actually adds to the one sheet the concept of a milestone, and the concept of a quantified activity goal or SMART goal, and mandatories. So when we do our level one or level two, and then like you, Maria, I'm an advocate for bottoms up mostly beyond there, following the exact same model, but with the definition that some teams might have more mandatories than stretch key results. Some teams might have more milestones. If they just don't have the authority or autonomy to contribute to results, they might have one or two operational key results, but not as many key results and more milestones. And sometimes a quantified activity or a SMART goal is the [00:18:00] right tool for the job. So that's the way I'm using it. It's super similar. It's that top-down, bottom-up, but then having a coherent set of words and meanings, because it's all semantics with me,that then we can choose the right tool for the job wherever we are in the organization. Okay. Be thinking about things we don't agree on, because we gotta have some debate in our Q3 gathering.

Natalie: Well, I have one maybe around culture. Like, how much do you acknowledge and bring culture into developing your OKRs for a given company? And it's vastly different culture from a scrappy, new technical company versus an old, traditional, over 150-years business.It's very different culture. And how do we sprinkle culture in to make sure that it stays in alignment with their mission, vision, values? Because they're very different. That's one thing, to make sure that I pay respect to and honor the culture that I'm hearing in my interviews, and that it's sprinkled throughout the [00:19:00] OKRs.

Sara: I'll start on this one because I think I'm in a really different position than you two, so I think you can speak better to that actual question. I am working with clients right now who are who are specifically invested in culture change in the way that I bring to OKRs. So by the time clients come to me, they have decided, "We have to accept the pain of change. Please help us." And so I'm in a really different position because I'm working mostly with new-to-role CEOs, turnaround CEOs, and organizations that know they need to transform in order to continue to operate sustainably. So they're already coming in, like bought in to OKRs as a mechanism for culture change. That's partly why, that's who I work best with. So that's partly why I am so outspoken about the approaches that I use, is [00:20:00] because clients have to be really pre-qualified. Where I think you two work with a broader range of clients. So I'd I love the question, Natalie. I'd love to hear what you two are seeing in that front, working across a more diverse set of clients.

Maria: Yeah, so when I say I'm scrappy, I mean I also wanna just introduce the timeline, right? Because I don't like to go in once and done and say, "Let's just help facilitate and set OKRs one session," because I think all three of us have used kind of the OK R journey as a way to talk about the continuous improvement, right? That nobody that I know of nails OKRs the first time around, right? Quarter over quarter, they get better. And so the way I think about this and the way I talk about it is, where are they today? What's their level of aspiration when it comes to OKRs? Because not everyone is, or already, or will be gung-ho about this being the overall thing. They might wanna be very [00:21:00] surgical about how they're using it. And I think the best way to use OKRs initially is always the way that the company are willing and able to adopt it. So me talking about this is like the gold star way of doing OKRs, isn't gonna help clients that are at the crawling level and not 100% convinced yet. I absolutely talk about the possibility that OKRs can have, but what I end up ultimately, the way I do it is, what do I think that they can actually accomplish in this quarter? And what is the roadmap for improvement over time? Because part of that is also, what's the enablement and what is the education and the kind of learning? Because I have very much respect for something you do four times a year. Anything we do four times a year, we are probably never gonna be masters at. So I think that understanding, for us coming in, actually being very good at spotting what's good and what's not and all that. But the fact that they only do this four times a year makes it hard, right? So I always think about [00:22:00] this like, this quarter, that quarter, as opposed to, this isn't any good right now, but what are they ready to get better at this quarter versus next quarter?

Sara: Yeah. Great focus. Natalie, what are you seeing?

Natalie: Yeah, it's interesting. There are some new certifications that have come out too that anybody can sign up and get their OKR certification I will, however, say that folks who do a quick training still need help. They just haven't been in the trenches long enough really to notice some of those nuances, especially around culture. And it takes a little bit more time, and to Maria's point, four times a year, you want this consistent rigor, every single time. And within the teams. I love the idea of hot-swappable coaches that also help you drive the culture. You don't have one coach that's just specifically for technology teams or just specifically for HR, but they're hot-swappable, and they're sharing this community of practice or community of excellence information also make sure that the culture stays consistent, but also the [00:23:00] consistency and rigor in the quality of OKRs that are helping build.

Sara: Yeah, absolutely. Maria brought up retrospectives and learning. I think that if I had to pick one thing, if I could only tell clients one thing about OKRs, it would be we spend all of our time focused on writing them and then way too little time focused on learning from them. And so that's what I think all three of us, that's something we have in common is we balance the focus on creation of OKRs is just the first step. And then iterative, quarter over quarter learning is what this is actually about. But what are you seeing in the kind of retrospective arena, Maria? What are you seeing work with clients?

Maria: The best approach to retrospective is the one that the company is able to adopt and actually execute at that given point of time. So I have the simple ones, the ones that we used to do way back when, what went really well, what could have gone better, what we wanna shift, like those three basic [00:24:00] questions. Sometimes that is the best the company can do. Typically though, it generates very shallow responses, right? If you're looking to actually really improve, just asking those three questions, unless the company is already invested and really good at it, you probably get insights that are less helpful and less actionable than they can and should be. So I have that version, because sometimes that's all they can do. But I also have other approaches where there essentially is both a review and a retrospective. So it's the review of the actual OKRs, like how did all these OKRs actually do and why. But then in terms of the process, I have a model where I have five building blocks that constitutes how you set up an OKR program. And essentially it's what went well with this, right? So how did we do on the setting and aligning and OKRs? How did we do on the quality of OKRs? How did we do on how we execute them? How did we do on the enablement of them? And how did we do when it comes to kind of [00:25:00] executive leadership? What went well with this? What could be better? What do we need to shift? That is one level more detail, right? That does provide the chance of getting more and better and more insightful, because it's more of a guided kind of conversation that helps them. But sometimes companies aren't ready for that because they're not used to having retrospectives. So bringing anything up where I would admit that I could have done something better in some cultures, in some environments is not healthy or safe. So maybe you start at a higher level, right? And then work your way down by helping the organization realize that if there's something inherent in their culture or management practices that makes these conversations less useful then they could and should be.

Sara: Yeah. How about you, Natalie?

Natalie: I've had an interesting thing come up with my retrospectives because again, I think everybody's running really lean right now and more scrappy than I've seen just because world is weird. I've seen where teams say, yes, we are committed to these [00:26:00] OKRs, and we got them done. And we have this other list of work, right, that wasn't captured in OKRs, this to me is disaster. Because everyone is supposed to be in agreement that the OKRs are empowering teams to say no to other work. And if they have two lists of strategy work that they're working from, and one is sort of, you know, not really captured anywhere in the OKR, this is where I'm seeing a big problem. Because people are over allocated, they're stretched too much, and then they have competing priorities. So this is a new thing I've seen in retrospectives, where they have an agreed-upon OKR list and then they have the other stuff, which is also critical strategy work and not run-the-business work. This is a new thing I'm seeing. I think also critical to call out, not only the wins, but the do-differentlys, and then what didn't get any attention and why. And some of that, those sage nuggets that come out, are like, this is culture. This is really about change management. And my good friend I worked with [00:27:00] in Saudi, Samira Memon, she's a transformation specialist, and I can't tell you how valuable that was to have her transformation expertise help me in understanding some of the nuances of the culture and the retrospectives. So I don't know if you guys have ever partnered with a transformation specialist, but she was phenomenal. It was so much easier for me to get really good information out of the planning and retrospective sessions with somebody who does transformation.

Sara: Yeah. Transformation is part of my generalist set, and I'm not that kind of expert, but I would agree that the transformation skillset, the ops and mechanics of transformation applied with OKRs, is how my work has actually helps clients change. So that, I would credit the transformation skillset You know, for the first time in my practice, I had a client come in who already had high-quality OKRs, and they were [00:28:00] struggling with implementation and specifically with their recurring OKR check-in meetings. My clients, the way we set things up, people are pretty independent by the time we finish one or two quarters. And I am seeing more clients sign on for long-term support a really low level, but just to reinforce the retrospectives and the continuous learning. Because. OKRs are really hard. We're talking about change, really hard for people to stick with when it gets challenging. So I have had so much fun working with that client who is utterly capable of creating great OKRs. They had fantastic training by another provider before I came in. Working with them around the recurring rhythm and how they achieve and learn from their OKRs,I'm having so much fun kind of staying with clients who want [00:29:00] that kind of ongoing support. Because that's where change really happens quarter over quarter.

Maria: Indeed.

Sara: That wraps up our first part of our Q2 OKR update with Maria Rowcliffe and Natalie Webb. I hope you found this discussion valuable, and I can't wait to hear your questions Be sure to stick around for part two, where we'll continue our conversation and tackle questions about top-down versus bottoms-up approaches to OKRs, some different timing models for OKRs, and a few hot takes that we'll end with. If you have questions about anything we discuss today or topics you'd like us to cover when we gather again in Q3, don't wait. Send them my way at hello@redcurrentco.com, and that email address is in the show notes. We might just answer them before our next quarterly gathering, but we'll for sure answer them then.

All right, friends, that's it [00:30:00] for today. Stay in the loop with everything going on around here by visiting findrc.co/newsletter and joining my mailing list. Got questions? My email addresses are too hard to spell, so visit findrc.co/contact and shoot me a note that way. You'll also find me at @saralobkovich on most of your favorite social media platforms. For today's show notes, visit findrc.co/thinkydoers. If there's someone you'd like featured on this podcast, drop me a note. And if you know other Thinkydoers who'd benefit from this episode, please share. Your referrals, your word of mouth, and your reviews are much appreciated. I'm looking forward to the questions this episode sparks for you, and I look forward to seeing you next time.