Sara Lobkovich | OKR Expert

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Self-Leadership for Individual Contributors, with Sally Ivester on Thinkydoers

Sara Lobkovich
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Are you an early- or mid-career individual contributor, curious about how to showcase your contributions and gain the recognition your work deserves?

This week's guest, Sally Ivester, brings us a fresh perspective on architecting your own career successfulness -- without trying to be someone you're not. 

Sally is a chief of staff in big tech who had a career-transforming experience when she downshifted her approach to career before the birth of her daughter. She joins us this week to share her perspectives on making the shift to playing your career on "easy mode" for those of us more used to playing our careers on "hard mode." 

We talk about the subject I personally love to hate: managing up. We also discuss the importance of proactively setting and communicating boundaries, and Sally's approaches to navigating feedback and what she calls "working loudly," (including a very introvert-friendly way to do so in writing). This short episode packs a punch of career development, for listeners who are looking to upskill at playing the corporate game (without masking or playing politics in ways that don't suit you). 

Sally was also very generous in sharing resources with us -- check out the links below!

Do you have a question or topic you'd like to see me tackle either as a solo episode or with a guest? I'm all ears. Visit the Thinkydoers home page and contact me there, or, point your guest suggestions my way!

A note on Rejection-Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD) and feedback

RSD is a condition characterized by intense emotional pain in response to perceived or actual rejection or criticism. RSD is a frequent topic of conversation in neurodivergent communities, and is not an officially recognized medical diagnosis, but is a term used by experts to describe the heightened emotional responses characteristic of the condition. If you experience RSD, “typical” approaches to feedback like those mentioned in this episode may not be helpful for you. For more information about RSD, visit:

Episode Highlights

  • Introduction to Sally Ivester: Sally’s background and her focus on supporting early-career professionals.

  • Managing Up: Redefining the concept of managing up without masking or changing who you are.

  • Communicating Boundaries: The importance of setting and communicating personal boundaries at work.

  • Working Loudly: How to effectively showcase your work and contributions.

  • Feedback and Growth: Embracing feedback and the concept of “B+ is the new A+.”

  • Personal Operating Model: How to create and share your personal operating model to set clear expectations.

Common Questions

  • What is managing up?: Managing up involves thinking ahead and aligning with your manager’s expectations without compromising your authenticity.

  • How can I communicate my boundaries at work?: Proactively share your personal operating model, including your preferred communication methods and working hours.

  • What does working loudly mean?: Working loudly means actively communicating your contributions and achievements to ensure they are recognized.

  • How should I handle feedback?: Embrace feedback as an opportunity for growth and aim for continuous improvement rather than perfection.

Notable Quotes from Guest Sally Ivester

  • “Managing up isn’t about being pleasing; it’s about thinking ahead and aligning with your leader.”

  • “B+ is the new A+. Embrace feedback and aim for continuous improvement.”

  • “Working loudly means ensuring your contributions are recognized and valued.”

Sally's Links and Resources

Sara's Links and Resources

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Episode 22: Self-Leadership for Individual Contributors, with Sally Ivester

© Sara Lobkovich, Red Currant Collective LLC (2024). All Rights Reserved.

[00:00:00] Sara: Welcome to the Thinkydoers podcast. Thinkydoers are those of us drawn to deep work, where thinking is working. But we don't stop there. We're compelled to move the work from insight to idea, through the messy middle, to find courage and confidence to put our thoughts into action. I'm Sara Lobkovich, and I'm a Thinkydoer. I'm here to help others find more satisfaction, less frustration, less friction, and more flow in our work. My mission is to help changemakers like you transform our workplaces and world. So let's get started.

Hello, friends. I am trying so hard to get us on a weekly cadence. We're getting close, but I'll make the commitment now that Thinkydoers is now a a weekly-ish podcast, so fingers crossed I can keep the momentum up. I'm your host, Sara Lobkovich.

Today, [00:01:00] we have a special conversation lined up with Sally Ivester. Sally brings over 12 years of experience in various marketing and operational roles. She's currently a Chief of Staff in big tech, which makes her our people. When she and I first connected, I leapt at the chance to have her on. She's just a delightful human to spend time with, but also, where most of my focus tends to be on support for mid and senior-career people, Sally brings a, shall we say, slightly fresher perspective to career successfulness support for individual contributors, including early-career folks.

Now, a quick note before we get down to it: My books are now open for 2025 planning engagements, so do not wait to reach out if you need help with your 2025 strategic plan or OKRs. We already have year end clients in the pipeline, which [00:02:00] doesn't usually happen until October, so it's going to be a busy year.

I also have a new Strategic Achievement Score Quiz on my website, and it gives you an actual numerical score. You could make a Key Result out of it, of how well you're set up to actually achieve your strategy. You can complete it and get your score without even giving me your email address, but if you opt in to email with me, I'll send you a "Not Available Elsewhere" five-minute exercise to get you started on your next strategic goal right from the start. Learn more at findrc.co/stratscore, or you can check out all my freebies and downloads at findrc.co/freebies.

Now, back to Sally. Today, we talk about one of the terms I love to hate: managing up. As well as the importance of communicating boundaries at work, Sally's point of view on managing [00:03:00] feedback, and why she says learning how to "work loudly" can be so important for us Thinkydoers. And side note, our chat is full of practical suggestions you can put to work today without masking or putting on a work persona that doesn't fit you. I had a great time with our conversation. Sally's being super generous with the resources that she's sharing with the Thinkydoers audience, so stick around to the end for a bunch of extras from Sally's toolkit.

[00:03:32] Sara: Welcome to Thinkydoers, Sally. I'm really excited to have you here.

[00:03:36] Sally: Thank you so much, Sara. I love the chat that we had before. You are just a wonderful soul.

[00:03:41] Sara: What got me really excited is I spend Most of my time with mid- and senior-career professionals, you work with early-career folks. Give us a little bit of an introduction to you and what you do

[00:03:56] Sally: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Sally. I currently have [00:04:00] had over 12 years of experience, and what I've realized in my role is I just love to help those who are early off in their careers, whether they're college students or recent grads play the corporate game. And I say that because I am someone who comes from an immigrant background, and even though I went to a nice, prestigious college, I had no idea what it took to succeed in the corporate world. I thought all it was like, you work hard and your work speaks for itself, and it turned out to be the complete opposite. Those are the types of things where I want to pay that forward. I want to pay it back. This is a great opportunity for me to talk about not just what I see in people who are in their early careers, but honestly, people who are just frustrated, regardless if they're early, or if they're middle, or if they're senior. That frustration is there when you're not getting the recognition or people who are half as talented as you are getting the promotion. It's not you; it's the way that you're showing up in this corporate world, but also how you're playing this corporate game. It's [00:05:00] all about playing the game on easy mode, right? And that's when you know the rules going into something. You know what it takes for you to make an impact, for you to manage your manager—who is, by the way, the most important person in the whole entire corporate job. But it's these types of things that you don't go into a job knowing necessarily. I see people who are successful as great examples of what it is that maybe I should be doing better. so those are the types of things that I want to share back, and make sure everyone knows as they start their career, but also as they're in their career, I want to just continue getting better and better.

[00:05:31] Sara: The kinds of skills that you talk about are skills that, I wish I'd had those cheat codes early in my career. But a lot of us get to mid- and senior-career and don't have them. Thinkydoers are the people who play our careers on hard mode. Yeah, so you're in just the right spot. How did you develop this skill set, and the frameworks or practices that you use and share with people?

[00:05:58] Sally: You say "hard mode" and that resonates with [00:06:00] me so much because I feel like a lot of my life has been hard mode, right? Where it is. I'm doing what I think is right—it's a lot of trial by error, and it's also learning just from myself. And I would say for probably 70 percent of my career, I was doing that. And then I think I hit a point, probably right before maternity leave where I just was like, "What's the point of working so hard? I'm going to be out for several months. I might as well just do what my senior execs think I should do. I might as well just be a yes person." And I'm being dramatic here, but by doing some of those things, I actually ended up scoring like the best rating I've gotten in my entire career, and I was only working for a portion of that year because I was out on maternity leave. That was the changing point for me, right? Instead of me trying to defend my point and push things through, I realized that was not getting me to where I needed to go, which was trying to be someone who was a thought leader. It's trying to be someone who is collaborative, and also trying to be someone who could lead this team. Just having that one [00:07:00] experience really opened me up into, " I've been doing this wrong." I've been trying my hardest, and my hardest has been like actually backfiring on me. So, let's figure out a way where I should use my energy to where it's going to pay it forward for me. And that's really what got me started in trying to jot all of this stuff down and share it with others, because I think there's a lot of people out there, especially people who are just like overachievers, they think it's just about the work. It's about how they push the work forward, it's about how they can show off as the smartest person in the room, and always having the answers. And so much of a corporate job is not that, and that's the stuff that I just wish I knew starting off in my own career. That I want to make sure that, we slay the gatekeepers. What I want to do is give those who are hardworking, who have worked their butts off,

the chance to do it their way,

 Part of why I was so excited to have you on is I am the queen of anti-managing up. What I [00:08:00] experienced when I was coming up in my early career was the coaching to you got to learn how to manage up. And when people said that, what they were saying is you need to learn how to be pleasing you need to learn how to be more political with how you're operating. Different people have different perspectives on managing up, so I have a blanket "ick" just based on my personal experience, which isn't fair, for sure. Totally.

[00:08:27] Sara: But one of the things that I really appreciated when we connected is, what I was coached to do is to mask. I was coached to be different than I am in order to manage up, I'm more of an advocate of managing up in ways that are true to you. I would really love to hear you talk about managing your manager without it being be someone you're not.

[00:08:51] Sally: I think if you have to change yourself I think that's the worst thing that you can do right because you are authentically who you are. But I think that there are different areas that you want to dial [00:09:00] up, especially depending on your manager's style or like your stakeholder's style or anything like that. It's not about changing who you are; it's just about understanding, "Hey, what are the rules?" And then you get to choose whether you want to play or not play. And if you do want to play, how you want to play. I think a big part of managing up comes down to thinking ahead. And we do this so much in our own life, right? If we have partners at home, it's about, "Hey, how do you not just take out the trash?" But, "How can you take out the trash without me telling you to take out the trash." Where it's like, it's, trash days Friday. How can I think on Thursday, I'm going to think ahead and take it out. Thinking aheadis a huge part of managing up, regardless if it's with your manager, with your stakeholders, even people at your same level. If I know that this is the project, what is the next step in that milestone that I should just immediately say, "Hey, I'm going to work on this next milestone." and even just saying that I think like that alleviates all the pressure, right? The manager's not okay, "I have to micromanage." And, "What is Sara doing? What is Sally doing?" They're thinking ahead and you want to then communicate this thinking ahead. There's no point. And me [00:10:00] saying, "Hey, Sara, I know I just delivered part one and I know the next milestone is part two," without me actually telling you what the next milestone is. I can't just be in my head; it has to be something that we communicate. Managing up isn't just about yourself; it's also about how do you showcase your ability to influence others and getting others to think about your work the way that you want them to think about your work or your project or whatever the right strategy would be.

What excites me about that keyword phrase of think ahead is that what it does is it reminds you. That managing up isn't about being pleasing, and it's not about mind reading, it is about thinking about what the important next step is. I just really love that the distinction is we're not mind reading. We're actually using our brains to think ahead. Then, just like when I coach people to create OKRs to take to their leaders to say, "Hey boss, am I [00:11:00] aligned?" —If they're in a situation where they have no idea what the expectations are—we can create our own expectations that way. Just like you're talking about aligning with your leader, which I just think is super cool to hear from another practitioner.

Yeah, absolutely. There are a few pieces that I wanted to build on, Sara. I think mind reading is just, that's a game that you'll never win, right? You just you can't read someone else's mind, and you'll always be in that losing position. My key focus is focus on what you can control. There are so many elements you can't control. You can't control who you get as a boss. You can't control what you get as a project or anything like that. But you can control how you manage your manager. You can control how much impact that you make on this project. And that's the type of stuff that I just want people to really think about is what can you control? Now, really quickly, just in terms of a mind reading or trying to, right? Mind read your bosses. I call this a personal operating model, which is just a fancy way of saying, "What's your user manual?" My personal operating model is I prefer emails over [00:12:00] slack chats. I work X hours to X hours. Talked to me over a video call over like a ping or something like that. And those are things that I think you can proactively do that immediately actually showcase you as a thought leader. So that's great. And then Two, it helps you set your boundaries, and That's so important because people then know how to work with you versus you being in this position where it's actually, "I work from 6 a.m. to 3 p.m. Like, 4 p.m. meeting doesn't quite work." If you proactively communicate and you show this to people, they're going to try their best to fit that type of stuff, and you won't be in an awkward situation I think the more that we can do those types of things, the more power you get, the more in control you feel about your projects and the better that you can do because you're the one who's ultimately in that like driver's seat. You always need to do things that support you as a human, and that's ultimately what it is that I want to teach.

[00:12:51] Sara: You said share your personal operating model, publish your boundaries, make sure those are proactively communicated. [00:13:00] And I know listeners are thinking, "I could never do that." For our listeners who think, "I could never do that," I want to plant the seed that says more about the environment they're working in than it does about them. Because in a healthy and constructive and well-supported environment setting boundaries is not only necessary, it's desired, Letting each other know how best to work with us is part of getting established somewhere. Then, you mentioned learning.

[00:13:32] Sally: In listening to you talk about the kind of skills that you coach people to leverage, what you're doing is coaching people It's not— we get so conditioned to just try and figure out how to succeed that it's a big step for folks to step in to that driver's seat and take the responsibility of their own career.

It is so hard to sometimes be in that driver's seat because you're like, "Where am I going? Do you want to be in the passenger seat, or do you want to be in the [00:14:00] driver's seat?" When I think of driver's seat, it's more so what can I do to that? I can control because I can't control the projects I get. I can't control if I get laid off or not, but I can control how I show up. And how you show up oftentimes, it changes the perception that people think of you. And the more that they think of you, the better the opportunities that you're going to get—either in that job or down the line. And the better the opportunities, the more recognition you're going to get. Any career goal that you have just comes and follows all of that stuff. And so it's just sort of this like, domino effect, I would say. And That's why I talk a lot about being in control. Because if you're in control, then you're able to almost protect your happiness in a way, versus giving your happiness to someone else.

[00:14:41] Sara: Listeners are going to be hearing the word "control" and be like, "Whoo", because when you make that shift to leadership, you have to learn to let go of control. You have to learn how to influence instead of control or acceptthat you can control very little sometimes in a leadership [00:15:00] role. But I think that's a really important distinction because if you're an IC, then it makes sense to be concerned with what you influence, but it does make sense to focus on what you can control—both for the quality of your work product, but also for your own well-being.

[00:15:18] Sally: Tell me a bit about how you coach feedback, and how feedback shows up in the workplace and your experience.

Yeah, absolutely. Feedback is such an interesting term, and you just can't get away from feedback. Like it comes no matter what. And. with a lot of these early career professionals who I talk with, feedback is hard for them because there's a lot of triggers that come with the term "feedback." It reminds them of them not being good enough. there are things that they will they'll never be good at, or they get into their own head and they think, "Gosh, I got to try harder and work harder and —what's going on?" And it becomes this whole achievement-type thing. The first [00:16:00] thing I tell people about feedback is there's always something that you need to do better, regardless of what it is they're putting out there or how hard they're trying. it's just sort of part of the job. And so you can either accept it, or it can eat at you. And the mantra that I tell a lot of people is: "B plus is a new A plus." And I'll say that again, "B plus is a new A plus."

[00:16:19] Sara: You're going to have to explain that to this audience

[00:16:21] Sally: The reason I say this is because we are so groomed, like we always need to get that A plus, like that's the most important thing. I have a four-year old daughter, and today at preschool, she like was drawing something for me and she wrote A plus on it. It triggered me a tiny bit because I'm like, "Wow, like we're teaching A plus atage four or something like that." But if A plus is what you are striving for, then you're never going to be in a position to allow feedback to come. You will be defensive, you'll be like, "But this was my best work—how come you're not seeing my best work?" And that's not necessarily the point of feedback, right? The point of feedback is that someone is investing their time in you to give you either direct [00:17:00] blunt feedback in terms of what's working or not, or sometimes a little indirect. And sometimes it can be massaged a little bit more, but it's all about like people investing time in you to give you that work. And if we think our work is B plus, we know that there are ways to get better, then that shifts our mentality as it relates to feedback because we're more receptive. We're not like, "Hey, this is our gold standard and it's perfect and nothing can be better." It's more so "This is my best foot forward. I'm sure there's going to be different ways that I could make this even better. I'm coming to you, Sara, because I would love your perspective, and I like actually want it." And that then makes the work way better than what my A plus version might be. I push this and I've seen so many people either say, "No, I can't do it." Or people who accept it. And when they accept it, better things come. And I think better things come because they are just willing to hear it and then they're willing to do it. And then once they do that, they get this brand of being more manageable, right? Like Someone who takes feedback, someone who's coachable.You [00:18:00] want that person on your team because feedback never goes away. Things can always be better, and if someone is receptive to that, then there's someone who's willing to be coached, someone who's willing to do things in a different way or try things out. So, this is all about taking feedback and accepting it, allowing yourself to make mistakes, and finally, acting on it.

[00:18:18] Sara: I want to acknowledge because we've got lots of folks who are wired differently, who listen who might experience rejection-sensitive dysphoria (RSD). That's a different ball of wax than what we're talking about. And If you are someone with RSD, I'll put some resources in the show notes, cause I got you there. We're talking about feedback when you're someone who's in the non-RSD spectrum of working with and engaging with feedback. When you talk about that we aim for A plus, that's who's listening to this podcast. I think it's because we have been playing on hard mode our whole careers. And so the only way we know how to [00:19:00] do is that striving for the A plus, because if we don't, we might not pass at all. I'm 30 years into my career and I still struggle with this sometimes if I'm not vigilant about it.

 Another really cool thing that you brought up is the impact of collaboration because when you're aiming for that A, you're going for perfect. You don't want to show anyoneuntil the work is as close to perfect as it's going to get. Then that's where that defensiveness can come from. You really hit the nail on the head in terms of if we aim for a B, then we're more open to feedback because we know there's that little bit of room to improve. But then it also recruits people to your cause because they get to co create with you. So I just I think it's a really important message, not just for our early-career folks, too. You also talk about a phrase I adore: "working loudly." Can you tell me what "working [00:20:00] loudly" is and how those two words got put together?

[00:20:03] Sally: Yeah, absolutely. This all stems from you are no one else's first priority except for yourself. You are not your manager's first priority, you are not your co worker's first priority— you are your own number one priority. Once you realize that, Then you realize you are then in charge of your own career and the brand that you put out there. I came up with the term "working loudly" because it is what you need to do. in order for others to know about the contributions that you're making. And then leads to probably more recognition for the work that you're doing. So when new projects come down the line, your name is top of mind. Working loudly is something that not just helps you today in your job, but it also helps you build your credibility, and land you better projects, and hopefully help you later down the line, too. And it goes back to we need to be in charge of our own career [00:21:00] and being a part of our own career is often how do we talk about the work that we're doing? And not just as in, Oh, I'm gonna let my work show and speak for itself. But very much in terms of This is what I'm doing. This is the impact that I'm making and how am I making sure that my manager knows about it. How am I making sure that my manager's manager knows about it? My manager's peers and so on and so forth. And as like someone who is early in their career, I don't think they do this enough because they think their manager is going to talk about their work. They got a lot of people to be thinking about they have probably a lot of direct reports, they have their own projects, have to be thinking about growing their scope and their pie, and all of that stuff. And it is actually probably easier for them if their report told them about key metrics or like key projects and key impacts that they're making versus them having to dig and do that research themselves. This then becomes a better relationship between the manager and the direct report because then you both know what's going on, and then you're able to set the right [00:22:00] expectations, and open and unlock even more opportunities

When you brought up value, it's not just about talking about the doing in my world. It's not talking about the initiative or the activity. It's talking about the Key Result: what is the outcome or the measure of progress? I think we often, especially earlier in my career, I wanted someone to tell me what those numbers were, like tell me what those expectations were. And it was such a huge pivot for me when I just decided to start setting those goals for myself. Cause then I could take them to my leader and say, "Hey, this is what I think is expected of me. Am I close?" I can draw a straight line from experimenting with that to what I do today.

 That is so critical, right? When you define what success is or at least you put your first stab down that immediately puts you in the driver's seat, right? But also it allows you to be seen as a thought leader

 The other nuance that [00:23:00] stands out to me there is you said you put your first thoughts down, that's B plus. Like, Again, even when you're enunciating your expectations or your possibilities, if you aim for a B, you know you're not super attached to it. You know it might change with feedback. So again, I just love how this all connects up together. I think you mentioned sometimes earlier in your career struggling with some imposter syndrome or impostery feelings, what do you have to say to people who struggle with a strong inner critic or who are really shy? Do you have any thoughts for them about ways to work loudly that feel authentic or that feel comfortable?

 When I say "working loudly," it's not just about talking, like physically talking. It could be just displaying your work on a simple spreadsheet. It is essentially like writing down your projects, writing down the objective that your project aligns [00:24:00] back to. Let's say we work for Apple. Their objective as a company might be to be a best-in-class hardware company. And then a project that you may be working on is like the social campaign, right? If you tie it to something that is a company objective, that immediately showcases how your project is aligned to something that you are doing that is now supporting a big company goal. And that just immediately makes what you're doing seem bigger. And then you talk about what is your outcome or what have you been able to achieve that week, and then what I like to also do put the percentage of time on there. Because people are always surprised by how much time people spend on things. And if you showcase that, that's a great direct way of getting your manager or someone to see this and be like, "Hey, do the times make sense or not? So, shall we actually be working on the social campaign 50 percent or should it be a 10 percent thing? And the more that you have this down in writing, I think the more people can react in like a rational way. Someone who might be suffering from imposter syndrome or someone who might be just like worried about talking about [00:25:00] their work and you get the cringe, putting it on paper is a great way to just talk about it because you're not lying. Everything you're doing, it's true. You're putting down the outcome, the results, all that stuff, all your project And it just opens up a way of talking about "Hey, are these the right projects? Hey, am I delivering what it is that we think that we should be delivering for this project and the outcome that I should be making?" And that's just a really easy way then to get on the same page as your manager.

[00:25:27] Sara: The tool that you just described is so smart because what it does also is it makes you easier to manage. You are doing the labor of helping meet your leader on clear expectations. Which, clear expectations are a leader's job, but if you need more clarity than you're getting, then you can step in and fill that gap with a practice like this. One of the things that used to drive me nuts as a individual contributor was the always-moving [00:26:00] goalposts or always changing expectations. For me, it was OKRs, but for other folks, having the kind of tool that you're talking about lets you have your own paper trail so that even if the goalposts move, you're not thinking, "What's wrong with me?" You can look at it and say, "Oh, the goalposts moved; I'll move them," and it just takes that "What's wrong with me?" out of the equation.

[00:26:23] Sally: That's why I like to have things on paper. Because then it's not about, "Hey am I listening incorrectly or are we on the same page?" It's literally just about, "Okay I'm gonna show this to you I'm gonna write down your feedback, and then we're gonna make it as rational as possible. Because people are human—like I might misinterpret you as a manager, you may say something and change your mind, and all that stuff happens. But it's just about acknowledgement and making sure that we're on the same page.

[00:26:45] Sara: I think that is so cool for our listeners to think about working loudly in writing.

 I know you have a course coming up.What are you doing this September?

[00:26:56] Sally: Absolutely. So I have a four-week cohort, and it's going to be [00:27:00] all about the Frustrated Employees Playbook To Corporate Success.My goal is to get people results immediately. And so it's four weeks. We're gonna cover like four specific topics that I think are just critical to just landing that foundation. I'm offering a free webinar come August 29th, and we're gonna go through 30 minutes of what I think is the first step of this corporate game. And very much of what I talk about is you don't get to choose whether you're in the corporate game or not like you're in it, and it all just depends on whether you play it on easy mode or hard mode. And so my goal is how do I get people understand what are the rules? Because once you know the rules, then you can actually win the game. I have a free career starter pack checklist that I send to everyone, which is like what you should be doing in your first three weeks of the job. It goes from the value that you create, but also to like different tactical tips of how can you be productive.

[00:27:49] Sara: I am part of Gen X TikTok, and I saw that you are also a TikToker, so let's tell folks where can they find you online if they want to hear more information.

[00:27:58] Sally: I'm on Your First [00:28:00] Corporate Job, that's my TikTok handle. And if you want to find my information, you can go to yourfirstcorporatejob.com

 I'm super grateful that you made the time today to join us. And I look forward to hearing all about your course

Thank you so much, Sara. This has been the best hour

[00:28:15] Sara:

Friends, that's today's episode. I can't thank Sally enough for joining me. And if you or someone you know would make a great Thinkydoers guest, send them my way. More information and all the links from today's episode are in the show notes and a full transcript is available at findrc. co/pod.I also got word this week that Thinkydoers is the number 33 career podcast in Egypt. So here is a shout out to our listeners in Egypt. I would love your reviews and shares to help bump that up in other countries around the world too. I work globally, but I am cooking something up for my Australian peeps especially. So U. S., Australian, and [00:29:00] Canadian shares are super helpful right now, but we'll take them anywhere in the world.

[00:29:04] Sara: Thank you for joining and listening. I really can't wait to hear from you about what in this episode resonated, where you got stuck or confused. And remember, that's always on me, not you, so I would love to hear your feedback. If there's anything I said today that you have questions about, you can find

me at Sara Lobkovich pretty much everywhere. I'm pretty sure I'm the only one. It's S A R A L O B K O V I C H. Nope, nothing here is easy to spell. You'll find a shortcut to the show notes for today's episode via Thinkydoers.com. You're always invited to contact me by email. The easiest one to spell is sara, S A R A at Thinkydoers.com. If you have other Thinkydoers in your work world, please pass this episode along. We really appreciate [00:30:00] your referrals, your mentions, your shares, and your reviews.

Thank you for tuning in today. And I look forward to hearing the questions this prompts for you.