Sara Lobkovich | OKR Expert

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OKR Expert Interview: Sten Pittet Turns the Tables on Sara To Talk No-BS OKRs

Sara Lobkovich

Text on graphic: Thinkydoers Ep. 23: OKR Expert Interview with guest host Sten Pittet and featured expert Sara Lobkovich.

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This is a bit unconventional ... but today, the host of Thinkydoers is the guest!

Please welcome Sten Pittet, Co-Founder and CEO of Tability, a collaboration platform for outcome-driven teams, as this week’s Guest Host of Thinkydoers … with OKR Coach and creator of No-BS OKRs (and Thinkydoer’s host) Sara Lobkovich in the hot seat.

If you're a regular listener you might be thinking:

"WTF? A platform guest?!"

But hear me out. Sten is with a platform... and he's also a Thinkydoer. We've been in touch here and there for almost a year now, and when he asked during our last chat if he could interview me for a podcast episode ... I just couldn't pass up the chance to answer questions from another pro in my network.

Today's episode is part one of a two-part series. Here, Sten asks me the questions he's been waiting to ask me while a recording is rolling ever since our first chat. 

We touch on my own journey with OKRs, including how they've shaped my career and practice, some of the challenges organizations encounter when trying to implement them, and my unique No-BS OKRs approach, which focuses in efficiency and simplicity.

Sten also makes a great plug (unsolicited!) for my No-BS OKRs Workbook, which is currently available as a PDF download from https://findrc.co/pdfworkbook (USD) or https://findrc.co/pdfwkbkAUD (AUD) and will be available in print later this fall, along with my first full-length release: You Are A Strategist: Using No-BS Objectives and Key Results To Get Big Things Done. 

Come back next week for part two of the series, when I get to turn the tables and ask Sten about his Thinkydoer career, which took him from development into product management, and now into the CEO and founder role; and, about why and how Tability came to be. 

Episode Highlights

  • Sara’s Journey with OKRs: From an individual contributor struggling with unclear expectations to an executive leader and consultant, Sara shares how setting measurable goals transformed her work satisfaction and effectiveness.

  • Challenges with OKRs: Discussion of why OKRs can be challenging to implement, particularly when leaders do not model the practice.

  • No-BS OKRs Approach: Sara explains her “No-BS OKRs” approach, focusing on simplicity and practicality, and the development of her No-BS OKRs Workbook.

  • Upcoming Book: “You Are A Strategist:” Sara talks about her upcoming book, which aims to help individuals discover their inner strategist and use OKRs as a tool for career success.

Common Questions

  • What are OKRs? OKRs (Objectives and Key Results) are a goal-setting framework that helps organizations align their efforts and measure progress.

  • Why are OKRs challenging to implement? OKRs can be challenging because there is no single "standard" or set of "rules" for implementing them; and also, when leaders do not model the practice or invest time in learning the framework.

  • What is the No-BS OKRs approach? A pragmatic approach to OKRs that focuses on simplicity, efficiency, and usefulness to facilitate learning and improvement toward higher performance.

  • How can OKRs benefit my career? OKRs help fill information gaps so you can spend less time mind-reading and more time focused on what's most important. They also help teams align work to important goals, and provide a shared definition of success for teams to aim for.

Notable Quotes

  • “My whole life as an individual contributor was trying to learn how to read minds because I just, I don’t know if some people can figure out what’s expected or if some people are less sensitive to that. And so they just kind of work to their inner compass, but I really struggled to understand what was expected.” - Sara Lobkovich, Creator, No-BS OKRs

  • “I fundamentally believe that every person listening to this podcast is a potential future CEO. That’s just how I approach everyone I work with.” - Sara Lobkovich, Creator, No-BS OKRs

  • “OKRs sometimes get brought in by the people just like Agile, you know, just like Scrum. And so sometimes the methodology comes in within the organization, but a lot of times OKRs come in through the C-suite or come in through the executives with a model of ‘I want more performance from our team.’” - Sara Lobkovich, Creator, No-BS OKRs

  • “When we have leaders that model those behaviors, that’s when implementations tend to be really successful, because then that’s when people in the organization see this is beneficial for me because it fills in my information gaps. It makes it easier for me to align my work to what’s important. I can be more successful.” - Sara Lobkovich, Creator, No-BS OKRs

  • “I wanted [The No-BS OKRs Workbook] to be a simple, useful way for anyone, even if they’ve never heard of an OKR before, to sit down and have support and scaffolding to walk through the steps of OKR creation for the first time.” - Sara Lobkovich, Creator, No-BS OKRs

  • “I know I am my best when I am telling the absolute truth, when I get to just call it like I see it and be honest and unfiltered and -- kind, always -- but direct and honest.” - Sara Lobkovich, Creator, No-BS OKRs

Sten’s Links and Resources

Sara's Links and Resources



FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Episode 23: OKR Expert Interview: Sten Pittet Turns the Tables on Sara To Talk No-BS OKRs

© Sara Lobkovich, Red Currant Collective LLC (2024). All Rights Reserved.

[00:00:00] Sara: Welcome to the Thinkydoers podcast. Thinkydoers are those of us drawn to deep work, where thinking is working. But we don't stop there. We're compelled to move the work from insight to idea, through the messy middle, to find courage and confidence to put our thoughts into action. I'm Sara Lobkovich, and I'm a Thinkydoer. I'm here to help others find more satisfaction, less frustration, less friction, and more flow in our work. My mission is to help changemakers like you transform our workplaces and world. So let's get started.

[00:00:40] Sara: Hello, all. I am so excited for today's episode. This is part one of a two part series that's actually almost a year in the making. Every so often I get an email from one of the over 100 specialty platforms in the OKR space wanting to meet [00:01:00] about potential partnership, and I'm really boundaried about that.

My focus is on methodology adoption, so I do keep tabs on the platform space because clients ultimately often graduate from working with me to adopting a platform. But my communication with platforms is typically just one meeting to hear about their focus and approach and who their solution works best for.

I file the information away in our knowledge base, and then that's it. But last November, I got a message from Nerida, the partnership development manager at Tability. I took the get to know you meeting and Sten, Tability's CEO, crashed our party. I learned a bit on that call about Tability, about where the product came from, and they learned a little bit more about my approach,

and we've just kept lightly in touch ever since. But then a few weeks ago, Nerida and Sten orbited back around for a catch-up conversation, during which [00:02:00] Sten point blank asked me if he could interview me here. So, how could I say no to that? So today is part one of that conversation with Sten hosting, and then in our next episode, I turn the tables to ask Sten some questions about his Thinkydoer career, which took him from development into product management, and now into the CEO and founder role.

I fundamentally believe that every person listening to this podcast is a potential future CEO. That's just how I approach everyone I work with. So I am really delighted to be able to share these conversations as inspiration for anyone out there who thinks, "maybe someday," with a side of, "but there's no way I can," about stepping into the CEO role.

So here's a little nudge in this two part series that if I can do it and Sten [00:03:00] can do it, then maybe you can too.

So let's get started on part one, and then come back next week for part two of this series.

[00:03:07] Sara: Today is a treat. I have Sten Pittet here with me. Sten is with Tability, which is an OKR platform I became acquainted with last year.

It was kind of a funny, like, mutual fandom situation. So Sten and I and his team have been in touch for a while just about some of the ways that our Approaches and thoughts on OKRs are in nice alignment. So we got together a couple of weeks ago and we were having a, one of our catch up chats and Sten asked if he could come on and interview me on my own podcast.

So that's what we're going to do today. I couldn't say no. So this is going to be a two part series. We're going to start with Sten interviewing me on my own podcast, and then we'll switch [00:04:00] gears at our recording halfway point. And then I get to ask Sten questions for a little while. So, Sten, I just want to welcome you and say thank you for doing this with me.

Oh, thank you. So before we get too far into it, can you just introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about the work that you do?

[00:04:18] Sten: Yeah. so I'm Stenmy accent is French, but I live in Australia. So it starts to be a bit complicated here. and, yeah, so what we're doing, it's hard for me to say that we're just, we're trying to just build an OKR platform because I think we'll get into that conversation. And it's more about enabling new ways of working.

[00:04:37] Sara: we've seen teams going from being very focused on projects to now caring a lot about the outcomes, but there wasn't a tool that really was designed for that. So this is what we're doing at Tability. It's a new kind of platform, but really puts goals at the center. that helps teams be able to understand, how to prioritize things the right way. So I'm co-founder of this company. we're split between different parts. some [00:05:00] people are in the US, some people in Australia as well. it's one of the listeners will know I don't often kind of weigh in on platforms because I'm really focused on the methodology adoption. And so, you know, this isn't. we are going to talk about Tability a little bit, but more in the context kind of of your career in our second episode.

 Sten, I feel very nervous handing the hosting over to you here, but I'm going to do it, so go for it. You can ask me whatever you like.

[00:05:30] Sten: Yeah. Well, I find this funny as well, because My assumption is that people hear you doing introduction about a lot of people, right? and people like telling you who they are. but I wonder how much your audience knows about you. And when I met you, I was just fascinated by your approach. Cause by all means, right?

You're you're very, softly. No, not very softly spoken person, but it's like the, Let's say that when I read the titles of your [00:06:00] book, like "No-BS OKRs," I look into it and I'm like, that's someone that has a very strong position and that I met you and I was like, Oh, you're, you're very nice.

And I love that approach. I wanted to meet you and I wanted to talk to you about that you, that you have, because I find, that No-BS OKR, approach really interesting and something that resonates with me. So I thought we might as well have a conversation and make that, public.

my first questions will be, how did you get there? Like, what was your journey that took you to, now writing books, having workbooks, guiding teams and helping a lot of people to understand how to do OKRs the right way.

[00:06:40] Sara: uh, survival, um, my earlier career as an individual contributor... I can't even think about how much of my brain power went to trying to figure out what was expected of me. my whole life as an individual contributor was trying to [00:07:00] learn how to read minds because I just, I don't know if some people can figure out what's expected or if some people are less sensitive to that.

And so they just kind of work to their inner compass, But I really struggled to understand what was expected. and then when I got into executive leadership, I felt that from both directions, so, I had reports who needed to know what was expected of them and I had leaders whose expectations I was trying to decipher.

And being in that compression zone was just, supremely challenging and I don't like to do things not well, so I want to figure out how to do things well. And for me, I had to figure out how to be in that compression zone between leaders with unclear expectations and staff with really high needs for expectation clarity.

And I started experimenting [00:08:00] with just setting measurable goals for myself. And at first it was quantifying activity. The one that I will always remember is, I wrote a goal that 100 percent of the slides I built would be reusable. Because I'm a strategist, so we build all these slides and then they wind up on the cutting room floor after the pitch and then you start it all over again.

And I was just burned out on that labor waste. So I set a goal that 100 percent of my slides would be frameworks or something I could reuse. And I did that and it changed everything. Like that one goal, gave me something I cared about to work toward in my work. So it wasn't trying to figure out what someone else wanted from me.

It was, what do I care about? And then write the goals about that. And then experimenting with goals like that for myself, and then experimenting with goals like that communicated to my team. experimenting with communicating those goals [00:09:00] upward to say, Hey, leader, here's what I think is expected. Are we aligned?

That just helped me connect all those dots that used to be mind reading. And that was in 2016. I didn't really realize OKRs were a thing until afterward. And so once I finally, came across Measure What Matters and read up on OKRs, then it's just been all OKRs from there.

[00:09:27] Sten: And that for me, there's a few things that I find fascinating in that story. So it seems that it was something that you were looking for, like that sense of meaning, right. And as a worker or individual contributor in a company, is that something that today you think is happening as well with everyone?

Or do you think that that meaning, happens more at the exec level versus just as an individual contributor level.

[00:09:52] Sara: I work with very large groups in very large organizations, I also get to work with [00:10:00] people in small organizations and solos. But what it means is I get to observe people at massive scale and observe human behavior at really broad scale in workplaces. And I think there's a lot of variability within all the cohorts. So it's, it's like every cohort has a bell curve.

There are individual contributors who just want to show up and check the box and collect their paycheck and go home. And there's nothing wrong with that. And there are other individual contributors who are wired for, "I got to make this better. I got to make this better," you know, and the folks who are really goal oriented as opposed to task oriented.

And it's the same thing in executive leadership. With every leadership team I work with, there's always that bell curve. There's someone really visionary and strategic. There's someone very focused on, I just want to check the box and go home. You know, and then there's people in the middle. And the senior-most leader [00:11:00] can be anywhere on that bell curve. So yeah, I don't see differences in level. It's more just I'm fascinated by that difference in wiring and behavior that I see around people who just want to do the thing and check the box and go home. And that's really satisfying. And then people like me who are never satisfied, who just always have to try and make it better because it takes both types

for anything to really happen. So there's not a good or bad, but building ways for those two types to understand each other that's one of the things that OKRs are really good at.

[00:11:41] Sten: that's really good for me because I think this is something that, we see a lot where it's easy to push OKRs when people bought into that. But I think like in the company, you can see, as you said, it's a bell curve at both levels and we see oftentimes, from my experience, leadership, understands really well, like the value in it. but for individual [00:12:00] contributors, it becomes a bit of convincing activity.

[00:12:04] Sara: yeah, so I see from the methodology side, when I work with clients who are implementing platforms, I encourage them to not adopt a platform until people are banging down their door for it. Because if they implement OKRs well, and implement the methodology well, then people will get on board and then they will want to use a platform.

 And so it's so much easier for you guys on the platform side, if instead of, imposing a platform to start, we show what are the benefits of OKRs and get people really excited.

[00:12:40] Sten: Yeah. I fully support that.

[00:12:41] Sara: Yeah, because then it makes methodology adoption so much smoother and it makes platform adoption so much smoother.

[00:12:49] Sten: So if I understand your journey, right, so you were an individual contributor that really was trying to find meaning in the work. And then, you become an executive that [00:13:00] was trying to do the same. And so as I understand it, you build your own goal setting system to start with. And then OKRs came to you, but there were multiple goal setting framework available at the time. So what made OKRs more appealing than other approaches that are around?

[00:13:20] Sara: That's a fun question. so I think partly I was an executive leader, when I first read Measure What Matters. So, like most executive leaders, I read Measure What Matters and I got very excited about OKRs. And then I sat down to try to work with them and was like, Oh my gosh, what do we do?

by then I was working in an environment where I'd kind of become known as the goal person. And so in the consulting company that I went to the minute I left my [00:14:00] last, agency to go consulting side, I had demand for OKRs. So there were clients who were working with OKRs and baffled by how to do it.

So it was kind of market driven. It was definitely a practice shortcut for me to discover or to have someone hand me a copy of Measure What Matters. And then I think even then, I saw the potential of what I thought we could do with OKRs, even if Measure What Matters didn't answer all the questions about how.

So I started working with clients and honestly, learning and figuring it out, which is, this is weird because I'm not a wing it person. I'm a like, learn it, do your homework, do it well. But there was just something in me in those early six or nine months where I was like, well, if I'm going to learn this, it's not like there's a guidebook.

 it's not like there's a manual that tells me how to do it right. So I'm going to have [00:15:00] to wing it. And so I did that in the early days and then, got enough real life, like, you know, we get to see it every day. Like we get to see people adopting every day. And so watching people, watching what was hard, watching what was beneficial, watching where the skepticism or the resistance was, all of that observation informed the way that I work with OKRs now.

[00:15:26] Sten: but so yeah, and could you talk a little bit more about that because In its essence, right? OKRs ... It's the objectives key results. There's only two things. Either it should be simple if I think about what it took, When I was at that lesson before right? So I think we'll talk about that. But when scrum was introduced the amount of things you had to learn and the story points and the themes and and the rules like OKRs you read the book and it's like you you need to have objectives pure objectives measurable key results why is it so hard?

[00:15:59] Sara: [00:16:00] I think what's different. Between, and that's a perfect example to look at Agile and Scrum and to look at OKRs and say, "Why is this so different?" But I think what's different is Agile and Scrum solves our problems. Like Agile and Scrum is something that we have to learn as workers for sure, but Agile and Scrum solves for pain points among the people doing the work within the organization.

Where OKRs are often brought in by leadership because they want more performance out of their teams. So, OKRs sometimes get brought in by the people just like Agile, you know, just like Scrum. And so sometimes the methodology comes in within the organization, but a lot of times OKRs come in through the C suite or come in through the executives with a model of I want more [00:17:00] performance from our team.

But not all executives are willing to learn the practice. Like I've had executives before I got better at filtering this out. I worked with one executive team and a really awesome leadership team and a very large organization. And nine months in the leader could not use the term objective or key result

correctly. Like couldn't distinguish between the two. So we had nine months of effort into an implementation that the senior executive wasn't modeling, even the basic words and meanings of, so I think, OKRs, sometimes leaders don't take into account the importance of walking the talk, and modeling the vulnerability and the risk taking and the transparency and the courage of creating OKRs.

So when we have leaders that model those behaviors, that's when implementations tend to be really successful, [00:18:00] because then that's when people in the organization see this is beneficial for me because it, fills in my information gaps. It makes it easier for me to align my work to what's important.

I can be more successful. And so, I'm hard on leaders, but I also have a lot of empathy for leaders. I know how hard the role is, but I think in our fast moving industries that most of us work in, leaders have to have that intellectual humility to spend the time to learn what an objective is, what a key result is, and then model those best practices.

Because that's how they get what they want out of their organization.

[00:18:40] Sten: But so if I to make sure I understood that right One of the issues like OKRs are pushed from the top, but then the same people that are pushing it tend to be really busy and not necessarily finding the time to invest in learning how that framework works. I think that's a great segue to the work that you've done.

[00:19:00] Like I've read your workbook and I find it amazing. Personally, I think that another thing that is missing was, you know, when I read Measure What Matters, it's, a very inspirational book and it's full of great stories but that's a perfect book that you need if you need to understand what's the value in it and you need to convince someone you give him that and generally speaking like everyone comes out of it thinking like my organization needs that it's

amazing but then I feel like what is missing compared to something like Scrum like there's no rules.

you come and you're like, okay, let's do it. And then you're like, okay, how do I start and what are the rules and how do I do this, compared to other frameworks that are very regimented. So when I read your book, I was actually excited to have exercises. but so talk a little bit about that.

It's like, how did you come up with this, the need for you to say, Hey, I've got all these things, all these thoughts. I'm going to put it together. and I'm sure that, you know, there's like many steps before you write a book. So [00:20:00] how do you go from, okay, now you're a consultant, you've been working with companies, to getting that amount of, knowledge and then putting that knowledge together and something that other people can use.

[00:20:09] Sara: I can't remember when I started thinking and building in frameworks. Like it was in my creative agency days, I remember building some frameworks there, but I didn't start thinking of OKRs as a -- like -- a framework that needed building until I took some training in OKRs and it was a course where there were experts that talked at the room for chunks of time and then we broke up and did hypothetical role plays to practice skills with OKRs and hypothetical role plays are my kryptonite because it's hard enough to for me to practice something that's new without imagining a scenario.

So as a instructor and a learner, those hypothetical role plays are really hard for me. [00:21:00] And I was really dedicated to learning OKRs, but I found that learning experience just so baffling. Like it was very discouraging for me, even though I'd been working with OKRs for a couple years at that point. And so at the end of that class, I sat down and I got out a piece of paper and I made my own one sheet, like my own cheat sheet of what I learned there.

And building my own cheat sheet became like core of my approach. And then what people needed in addition to that cheat sheet became the next layer of information and the next layer of information and so the workbook that you mentioned is It's hard to say it's a short sweet OKRs workbook, because it's still 50 pages.

But I had a hard time, making the decision about where to stop. I wanted it to be a simple, useful way for anyone, even if they've never heard of an [00:22:00] OKR before, to sit down and have support and scaffolding to walk through the steps of OKR creation for the first time. And that step by step feeling confident and excited about the goals that they created and knowing this is a learning process, so it's not about writing right or perfect OKRs, it's about running a sequence of experiments and how to get better.

And so that's really how the books happened. It was the same thing you mentioned, I got to the end of Measure What Matters and I was like, okay, great, how do I do this? And I saw the Google playbook, I saw some other references that were out there, but none of them gave me that step by step sequence, which is how I learn, and it's not how everyone learns, lots of people can just wing it and figure it out, but I have found, there's something about people drawn to OKRs, I think because they fill a heuristic [00:23:00] gap for some of us, those step by step approaches and the worksheets are really helpful because those fill the heuristics gaps of creating OKRs.

so it's been really exciting. I love that workbook. I get really strong positive feedback about it. right now it's available in PDF and I'm excited to get it into print just because then, you know, it's one more way that folks who don't want to do this on digital screens can actually have a physical book that they can write in,

my goal is that these resources help people who are struggling with OKRs right now. But my goal is also that people who've never heard of OKRs find the books that I write and the work that I do helpful in learning how to set goals that help them have more successful careers.

 

[00:23:50] Sten: I'm going to jump in and say to your audience, I know this is weird, but I want to promote your own workbook and your thing, because yeah, a lot of books are [00:24:00] really helpful, but like a workbook is, this is great because I think the thing is you need some helpto take your mind out of the projects,

and start thinking in terms of outcomes. And that's really hard when all we do day in, day out is just like, you know, activities, it's outputs, outputs, outputs. And so that's the thing is like, I would really say to everyone, just get the PDF, work with that. That's a great way to have a forcing function to make you think like, okay, what are the goals here?

I love the No-BS OKR title

because the implication of it is that people might be doing the opposite.

That's a strong title, right? that's one thing that I loved about, when we met the first time I was like, I feel like. You have really strong views on some of the things we do right and

wrong. Talk about the, the No-BS part of it.

[00:24:56] Sara: Yeah, when I kind of started to put together, [00:25:00] it was really the first version of the workbook. I knew I needed to brand the approach and I struggled.

I finally landed on Evolutionary OKRs because I felt like that was a good way to communicate this is an iterative process, it's a learning process, it's a growing process. the first version of the book was written with that name. And in parallel, I created a course. And when I made the course like placeholder, it was a really fast development.

So it wasn't a like protracted product development. It was like a couple of weeks sprint. I decided I wanted to get a course pulled together with the basics. And my rough draft wireframe was this is just a No-BS thing. Like this is going to be a No-BS course. And I couldn't not use it. it's not shade on anyone.

You know, I'm not actually saying that there is BS out there in the field. I have only respect for other [00:26:00] OKR practitioners, including ones that I fundamentally disagree with. My approach works for the companies I work with and their approach works for the companies they work with. but I do think what I've done is kind of distilled the practice down to a simple, kind of, no, there, I was going to say no dogma, but, you know, there's still dogma because I do believe this is a transformative process, but I've just tried to distill it down to be no-BS, not waste your time.

Like we create OKRs fast because we're going to ultimately learn how to make them better by working with them, not by taking more time to create them. So I still use Evolutionary OKRs in more conservative environments. We still have that brand available. the more I.

just played with that course design, that name just took over the practice and if there's one thing [00:27:00] about me, I know I am my best when I am telling the absolute truth, like when I get to just call it like I see it and be honest and unfiltered and, kind always, but direct and honest. And that was the name I think that is direct and honest about what you're going to get working with me.

[00:27:23] Sten: Yeah. So it's not so much about calling out people. it's not at all like about calling out people. It's more, a pragmatic approach to it. It's like, let's remove all the unnecessary beats. Let's go down to the — essential. Yeah. I like, I think that's important. It's like I've said time and time again in calls, I have a slide that says like the mistake that you'll all make. And it's just like, you're going to make it too complex. and it's many parts, but it's like, we can't resist having more goals than we

want, or trying to find like convoluted ways to measure [00:28:00] things. This was for me. I think that that's a great title. and I think it's great if you can, you know, present it as is in a company because it sends a message as

opposed to be like a little bit too, you know, soft on that advice. I think that's an important advice.

[00:28:16] Sara: Yeah. I mean, it also just doesn't do anyone -- you know -- there are some cultural environments where it's just necessary. There's not a negotiation. but most people who work with me are hiring me because I call it like I see it and they want my unfiltered truth. And so, it's a good filter.

[00:28:35] Sten: You know, for whether folks want to work with me or not. And if it's a good use of time for both of us. And so, yeah, and there's a follow up to that, right? It's like, so you have a book coming up as well, like "You Are A Strategist."

Is that correct?

[00:28:50] Sara: so what I would say is the No BS OKRs workbook is a OKRs workbook. And "You Are A Strategist" [00:29:00] uses OKRs as a tool. So it does teach and coach No-BS OKRs, but it puts them in context of there are people who are strategically wired, who struggle in their careers because of communication and like they're long talkers like me, you know, like there's all these characteristics that those of us who are wired for strategy possess that might make career hard.

And so that book is contextualizing skills to help those people be more successful. But what it also is, is the people who have heard their whole careers, "You need to be more strategic," and had no idea what to do with that feedback. Like no idea whatsoever. There's no answer. You can't Google that and find a good answer.

This is also a tool for those people to get acquainted with their inner strategist because we all have them like it's in everybody. And so that [00:30:00] book is I want it to be a way that people get connected with their own inner strategists and have tools, and then we can share the language across everyone, no matter what their wiring is.

So it's a bit of a passion project. so it does really rely on OKRs and there are a couple chapters that are technical on OKR implementation for practitioners, because I couldn't stop myself. But it is intended to be accessible to anyone, including, people who might never have considered OKRs before.

[00:30:34] Sten: Yeah, as I said, I'm fascinated by all the things you do Once again, I think everybody should get that workbook and I'm really excited to read your, "You Are A Strategist" book when it comes out as well.

 the first time we met, like as we started the conversation, I wanted to save those questions for a moment like this because I think it would help a lot of people to understand as well why they should be doing OKRs or choose OKRs

[00:30:55] Sara: Yeah, me too, I just thank you for suggesting it, this has been so [00:31:00] much fun,

 That's it for part one. You'll find links to the resources we discussed in the show notes at findrc.co/pod. And then don't forget, come back next week for my interview with Sten about his career journey in product from a mid sized startup through that startup's growth surge, and ultimately into the role that he's in now.

​[00:31:24] Sara: Thank you for joining and listening. I really can't wait to hear from you about what in this episode resonated, so I would love to hear your feedback. Also, don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter at findrc.co/newsletter, so you can hear about everything happening all at once before the general public.

If there's anything I said today that you have questions about, you can find

me at Sara Lobkovich pretty much everywhere. I'm pretty sure I'm the only one. You're always invited to contact me by email. The easiest one to [00:32:00] spell is sara, S A R A at Thinkydoers.com. If you have other Thinkydoers in your work world, please pass this episode along. We really appreciate your referrals, your mentions, your shares, and your reviews.

Thank you for tuning in today. And I look forward to hearing the questions this prompts for you.